Prophets Who Do Not Prophesy

Every six months the Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints  hosts an event called General Conference. The LDS Church teaches that when the General Authorities speak in conference,  it is as if the Lord Himself were speaking.

Mormons are proud of the claim that they have continuing revelation in the form of these prophets, seers and revelators. I have talked with countless Mormons who accuse me of believing that God does not speak today. They then point to General Conference. Numerous Mormons have told me, “We get new scripture every six months.” Really? If this is true, then I can’t help but wonder why there hasn’t really been anything new in… forever.

Years ago I talked with a set of Mormon Missionaries who wanted to know if I watched the recent conference that they had informed me about the week before. I asked why it was so important. They told me some of the things I have already mentioned above, i.e. God will be speaking to us and we need to be led by a prophet.

When I asked what it was that I needed to know that wasn’t already taught in the Bible, or even in the works they accept as Scripture, they stuttered and looked at each other.

“Well, there was that one talk ‘elder so-and-so’ gave that spoke about staying out of debt.”

“You mean like God tells us in Proverbs?”

The other Mormon missionary said, “Apostle ‘so-and-so’ spoke about dangers of internet pornography. The Bible doesn’t talk about that.”

“True, but Jesus does tell us that if we look at a woman lustfully, we have committed adultery in our hearts.”

“Hmmm. That is a good point.”

There wasn’t anything that these two guys could recollect to that was anything new. Everything had already been taught in one way, shape or form. As I think back on that occasion, and sit here at my keyboard listening to general conference, I have never understood why people get so excited for this event. Apostle David A. Bednar is speaking on chastity right now. He is speaking about it within the context of a basic Mormon world view, but it isn’t anything I haven’t already heard or read before in my studies of Mormon literature. This leads me to a question, a number of questions actually.

Why do we need prophets to teach us what we have already been taught? As a Christian, I have heard many lessons like this before taught by many godly men and women. Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to criticize Elder Bednar for what he is teaching. He is saying some really good things about being morally upright and sexually clean. What I am questioning is why do Mormons need a prophet to declare these types of things which are so basic to morality? Again, I haven’t heard anything I haven’t already heard before by spiritual leaders, both Mormon and non-Mormon.

Basically it gets down to this for me. What I want to know is why do Mormon prophets speak on such basic things and avoid the things that early Mormon prophets spoke about? I ask this last question as respectfully as I can. Why have prophets, seers and revelators who don’t prophesy, see or reveal anything that we haven’t already heard, seen or had revealed?

66 thoughts on “Prophets Who Do Not Prophesy”

  1. When Prophets cry repentance to the people over an over and over and over and over again in the bible.. no one slams them for repeating what has already been said. It is obviouse you didn’t like what the Prophet Joseph Smith had to say so what does it matter to you whatthe Mormon Prophets have to say?

    1. Biblical prophets preached repentance because the people needed to repent. That isn’t all they did though.

      You are correct that I don’t like what Smith had to say because I believe it is damnable heresy. That is exactly WHY I care what Mormon prophets have to say because I honestly believe they are false prophets leading people away from the one true God.

      So at this point, I guess I resemble Biblical prophets more than President Monson does. I am calling people to repent from following false prophets and turn to Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of their sin.

      1. Keith, you made some excellent points . Bottom line here : we simply don’t
        need Mormon prophets/apostles . When it comes to living a moral lifestyle
        the Bible contains much in the way of safely navigating the moral problems
        we may face today , and Christian Pastors are also helping us to keep on
        the safe path . So when it comes to receiving instruction on living a moral
        lifestyle we simply don’t need Mormon leaders counsel . I think that the
        days are here when we see Jesus’ warning about men arising in the latter
        days who would attempt to mimic His apostles claims and in so doing will
        mislead many sincere people away from the truth about Him, God , or how
        a person can receive salvation. These men will not all be immoral or conniving
        individuals , some will be well dressed , polite , and even talk about ” serving
        God ” etc.and this will cause sincere persons to be misled into embracing
        doctrines they will introduce—- false teachings packaged as “new light”
        from God . Mormon leaders are such men .
        May the Mormon people ponder Jesus’ warning for our day : Matt 24:11
        Mark 13:22-23 , and take time to honor that counsel by testing their
        prophets —-Gal. 1:8 ; 1 Jn 4:1 .

  2. My question would be this, “If you don’t think Church Leaders have anything to say that isn’t already contained in the Bible, why waste your time watching Conference?” I believe the leaders of most Churches would also cry repentance because obviously people have need of it. Prophets and Apostles of old went about teaching and preaching the same things to people, they didn’t listen then any better than they do now. I have no doubt that they receive revelation to guide the affairs of not only the Church but the whole world, that is why Conference is broadcast to the whole world. My goodness Mike R., can’t you come up with better verses, those are getting SO redundant. The greatest thing about modern Prophets is that our Father in Heaven has restored the Church of His Son, and shown to mankind that there is no such thing as a triune god. That along is enough. ♥

    1. Fair question. Why do I pay attention to general conference? I keep up with it so I have my finger on the pulse of the Mormon people. The Mormons are a people group that I have been called to reach for Jesus Christ. I take the time to learn what Mormons are learning themselves so that I can communicate the true gospel with them more effectively.

    2. Cherib, I think the truth of these verses are convicting you because after all
      you follow a prophet and these are the latter days , so you of all people should
      take Jesus’ warning more seriously . My sharing these verses may be seem
      redundant but that’s because they are SO important . The stakes could’nt be higher.
      Jesus knew this and hence His counsel for all of us to be on the lookout .
      As far as God restoring Jesus’ church in 1830 , sorry but that did’nt happen because
      Christianity did’nt sicken and die , and a universal /total apostasy from the
      christian religion did’nt happen , nor was the gospel of Jesus [ and thus salvation ]
      unavailable for centuries until 1830 . All this type of teaching is what we can
      expect from those who would try to convince people to submit to latter days
      prophets who claim to be the sole mouthpiece of God in order to receive
      eternal life . Yet these egregious teachings come from Mormon authorities. Also,
      considering what these men have taught about God , I think the wise choice
      to make is to stay with the Bible’s teachings . That’s my hope for you and all
      the Mormon people . You don’t need your prophets to be in a right relationship
      with God . I pray God will help you to understand that simple and powerful truth.
      .

      1. If you understood anything except your false beliefs Mike, you would know that as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we follow our Savior Jesus Christ and the instruction He gives through the Holy Ghost and His mouthpieces on the earth – Prophets and Apostles. We recognize that it is in and through our Lord Jesus Christ that we can be forgiven IF we choose to repent. ♥

        1. Cherib, my ” false beliefs?” Really? Here’s what I do understand by the Holy Ghost and the scriptural record : JESUS is to be Worshiped !
          You “follow Jesus ” and instructions through the Holy Ghost ? Yet you
          testified that you don’t worship Jesus; sorry but that is’nt from God !!!
          That’s a textbook example of spiritual deception. May you exchange your
          leaders, when it comes to saving truths about Jesus , with those in the
          Bible . There are few things so TRAGIC as to claim you “follow Jesus” and then not worship Him . May you ponder that fact .
          Paul warned long ago to expect those who might try and teach sincere
          people to believe in “another Jesus ” ( 2Cor 11:4) . All the good deeds
          done ” in Jesus’ name” cannot substitute for being misled about Him .

    3. (Prophets and Apostles of old went about teaching and preaching the same things to people, they didn’t listen then any better than they do now.)

      Cherib,
      I agree with you, I find many people, who want God’s Church to be false, forget that Prophets, who are recorded in the Bible, would have spent much more time and energy teaching Heavenly Father’s children, then was recorded in the Bible. They would have done their version of General Conference and reteach what God had had taught before.

      fred

  3. Keith – good article.

    However, I don’t have a problem with “prophets” not coming up with something new. For instance, you could be a “prophet” by calling people to repentance, but it’s been done hundreds of times before. And, some of the things we need to repent of are not new – you already mentioned sexual behavior. In my reading of it, what seems to distinguish a Biblical prophet is that he (sometimes she) somehow discerns the Word of God in and for a particular context.

    But, here’s the problem with the Mormon “prophets” (that you alluded to with some delicacy), especially the pioneers – Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and, to a lesser extent, those who followed in their office. Their “new” prophecies frequently override and contradict their “old” prophecies. (Adam-God, Polygamy, the Mark of Cain, to name a few).

    Perhaps, because of the massive amount of documented evidence, they’ve got wise to their “make it up as we go along” strategy. Not wishing to embarrass themselves further, they’ve withdrawn their “prophecies” into safe ground. No longer do we hear about the coming of the Lord in 52 years, or the building of the Temple in Kirtland, or whatever because you could evaluate the truthfulness of these things by whether they actually happened or not. No longer do we hear about fantastic translations of hidden books (why not? would it upset the Mormon world-view if it happened). Instead, the prophecies of today are so nebulous, you could get them from any assortment of gift or birthday cards.

    Wisdom, maybe. Prophecy (in the sense that Joseph and Brigham understood it), no.

  4. Keith, who “called” to reach “Mormons”, why not focus on your own “little flock”? No need to convince us of the “true gospel” since we already have the “fullness” of Christ’s “true Gospel”.

    Mike R., while it is true that Christianity didn’t die, it did “sicken” and became quite perverted and watered down. It is true that “many plain and precious” truths have been lost, and with gratitude and thanks – have now been restored.

    You know, Christ was crucified because of the unbelievers. Stephen and other Apostles were martyred for the same reason, as was Joseph Smith, yet they all preached the truth.

    “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.”

    That is being done and no “unhallowed” hand or voice can silence it.

    I am one who looks at other religions to see and build upon our likeness, or common beliefs. In John 17, we are counseled to be “one” as the Father and Jesus Christ are “One”. How do we accomplish this when we are many? The same as They do, of the same quality, united, undivided, being in agreement, of one mind, one heart, one faith, one baptism, one purpose. ♥

    1. Cherib, I’m afraid that you are only giving me your personal opinion in your
      response to what I said about the Mormon fallacy that the Church that Jesus established sickened and died off. You apparently deny that it did die off . Yet
      I was merely quoting from a Mormon church published booklet entitled
      ” Apostasy and Restoration”, p 7,9 . ( Keith’s ministry has an article on this ].
      Your leaders said : ” Christianity sickened and died ” , and that’s what I stated.
      I think it’s also important to mention that just as you were wrong on this issue so
      also are you’re wrong in what you said about there has been truths lost which then
      necessitated a “restoration “, however,concerning what is necessary for person to receive salvation ( eternal life) this truth has never been ,” unavailable until 1830 “.
      That is simply ridiculous , and it’s a favorite tool used by some men in these
      latter days claiming to have God’s appointment to be His exclusive spokesman
      in order to introduce their teachings , thus we are to test these men’s doctrinal
      offerings . But why ? answer: Matt 24:11.
      Sadly, but from what I have experienced with the Mormon people is that so many
      of them seem to think that a false prophet/apostle is never a kind and well
      mannered individual who talks about Jesus . They seem to think they can spot
      false prophets because they will look and act like a Brian David Mitchell .
      Cherib, bottom line is : don’t confuse being “nice” with being right . If your
      leaders have drifted away from the true gospel by amalgamating their own
      ideas onto it , then you are accountable for following them — Matt 15;14 ; Gal 1:8
      no matter how “nice ” these men are .

      1. Mike, thank You for your response, I am very clear on the fact that Christianity didn’t “die off”, good men with good intentions held on to what they could. However, conspiring men being who and what they are saw and opportunity to benefit themselves by ruling the Country with the church at the head and doing the governing. These truths aren’t studied in public schools anymore, but when I was young they were. People lived in fear and oppression. At long last their freedom to think and believe became greater than the fear of death and reformists arose, the church referring to them as heretics. Mankind held onto fragments of what the believed to be true and started their own congregations, many admitting they didn’t have the full picture of the Gospel.

        There came a time in my late teens that I wanted to know for myself what was true and what wasn’t. I began to study religion and religions. Some it didn’t take long for me to discover that they had nothing for me, others I investigated a little longer. What was troubling to me was that most couldn’t even answer the simplest of questions, calling them “mysteries”. That was confusing to me as the questions I asked were quite clear in my mind.

        I find it interesting Mike that you lump me in with your perception of blind members of the Church, with the false idea that I believe a false prophet would look like a “Brian David Mitchell”, and that “well mannered”, “nice men”, couldn’t possibly be false. Actually, I think the exact opposite, I’m fully aware that an anti-Christ would be more like a Jimmy Jones, polished, smooth and convincing. So if you don’t mind, I would greatly appreciate it if you wouldn’t underestimate my intelligence. You respect my intellect and I will do likewise.

        The thing I have found common among most Christians is they do not understand, nor can they describe the role of the Holy Ghost in their lives, they cleave to Holy Writ as their source of truth, yet they don’t understand the very book of scripture that they revere. I am VERY familiar with the Bible as it is the book of scripture that I cut my spiritual teeth on. Why do you think that the Father gave us the Holy Ghost to comfort us and teach us and bring ALL things to our remembrance after Christ was crucified? John 14:6 Because He knew only too well that mankind would become confused because the adversary was going to do his level best in leading the sons of mankind down strange paths and perverting His Gospel…and he has.

        You see Mike, the intent is to read Holy Writ (scripture) and then seek understanding in and through the Holy Ghost, the witness of ALL truth. If we did that, there would be NO division among Christians, there wouldn’t be hundreds of different sects, we would all be of one faith, one baptism, one Lord and of the same heart and mind. Explain to me why aren’t you a Baptist, a Methodist, a Lutheran, an Episcopalian, or so on? Why did you choose to be whatever religion it is that you are?

        As you well know, salvation can be used in different ways. It is salvation from the grave because of Christ’s resurrection, salvation from the clutches of the adversary because of Christ’s Atonement that makes it possible for us to repent and cleansed of iniquity through His Redeeming Blood.

        I would find it very difficult indeed to know Who Christ is, when I don’t even understand that He and His Father are not the same Being. I won’t use words such as “ridiculous” like you, I will instead use the word “incomprehensible. Of course there are a myriad of examples in the Bible advocating that “They” are separate and distinct Beings, united in truth, purpose and work among the children of men, however, the one I will use is John 17 when Christ is in the Garden of Gethsemane, praying to Whom? His Father.

        He asks that we can become one as He and His Father are One. Now we know that any intelligent mind can figure out that millions and billions of people aren’t ever going to be one being, anymore that the Father, His Son, and the Holy Ghost can all Three be One Being. So how is that to happen? We are to be of one faith, one mind, one heart, one baptism, just as Christ taught during His earthly ministry. Spare me the explanation of a triune god, I know it backward and forward.

        We were given the Holy Ghost as a witness of truth, to guide our understanding in things physical, spiritual, religiously, academically, and scripturally, etc. I have had MANY beautiful witnesses given to me. Many too sacred to share, and none that I could ever deny. My question to you would be the same as it was to Keith, “What could you possibly have to offer me, other than your opinions, that I don’t already possess?” ♥

        1. Cherib, I assure you that I respect your intellect . I can remind you
          that good intellect people can be misled by false prophets, especially
          the ones who are polite , peaceful , and well groomed individuals . Now
          you still don’t seem to understand what I stated about the fallacy taught
          by Mormon authorities that a great apostasy supposedly occurred and
          caused Christianity to sicken and die . You denied that it did die . So who do I believe , you or them ? Now I agree that a apostasy during
          and especially after the death of the last apostle took place, but not a
          universal or complete one ,and since Mormonism has taught that a
          universal apostasy happened that therefore salvation was unavailable
          until 1830 , I said this was ” ridiculous ” , and it is a ridiculous doctrine
          because it’s a lie. Now I hope you don’t personally believe in this false
          doctrine , but your leaders have taught such, and thus I evaluate them
          1 Jn 4:1 .Now I liked what you mentioned about the Holy Ghost, and I
          know that He will teach and guide . Take the documented fact of the
          resurrection of Jesus , that glorious fact of history , which the New
          Testament records as one example. A person can read the scriptural
          record but unless the Holy Ghost aids them in receiving the truth
          about the resurrection into their hearts and minds they will not be
          moved to ask Jesus to change their life —Rom 10:9-13 .
          Let me close by citing what you said about God giving the Holy Ghost
          because : ” He knew only to well that mankind would become confused
          because the Adversary was going to do his level best in leading sons
          of mankind down strange paths and perverting His gospel and he has.”
          I agree that deception has always been the Adversary’s tool ( and that
          imitating the truth is perhaps his most successful ploy) , that’s why we
          are told by Jesus to beware of false prophets because their appearance
          may be wholesome , their speech may include Bible verses, BUT some
          of their doctrines will be false , a close imitation of the truth taught by
          Jesus’ original apostles —Gal 1:8. This is MormonISM . The Mormon
          people are a sincere people striving to serve God , but they have been
          detoured by men who mimic Jesus’ apostles into embracing false
          doctrine about Jesus and about His gospel of salvation (eternal life) ,
          no doubt these men have felt a still small voice that they felt was the
          Holy Ghost speaking to them to make their claims of authority and
          to introduce certain teachings , but they only produced , : the precepts
          of men ” , well intended perhaps , but not from God . Safety for those
          who follow false prophets is to dismiss allegiance to these men .
          This may be difficult for you to accept but because of my concern for
          your spiritual well being I have to say it .
          By the way , I don’t doubt that God has helped you in some ways that
          are personal , perhaps such as physical healing or finding a job ,or a
          faithful marriage partner etc. He has done this for me also . I know that
          God loves the Mormon people . It’s not His will that anyone is misled
          by false prophets . There is a very real and saving relationship with God
          outside of the Mormon church . It’s all about Jesus , not a Temple , nor
          by working to merit God’s fullest blessings in heaven by keeping the
          rules, regulations, laws , policies, of a elaborate church system .
          I hope you’ll ponder that fact .

          1. I clearly understand what you suppose to be a “fallacy” Mike. As I’ve stated many times, the word “salvation” is used in several ways. All mankind, through the resurrection of Christ is “saved” from the grave and will live “eternally”. I would need to know where your quoting from to know in what context the word is being used. Other words with various meanings are “paradise, Heaven or Heaven’s, Exalted, Kingdom of God, etc.”.

            As for who you “believe”, that is a personal choice. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I share what I share in rebuttal to false interpretations of the Churches doctrine, which doctrines are given through revelation. Apostasy Mike, is a falling away from truth as taught by Jesus Christ, and prophesied by Isaiah. While agreed, many good people had fragments of the truth rather than the fullness of truth, and if this were not so, we wouldn’t have a vast variety of religions. Just believing in Christ and accepting Him as one’s personal Savior does not entail His complete Gospel. Does it save them from damnation, and death? Of course.

            Now what causes you to be SO myopic as to think that the Holy Ghost hasn’t “moved” in my life and hasn’t guided me in my studies? You seem to have the misguided notion that the Church teaches me certain doctrine and I “blindly” believe. Of course that is merely your perception and FAR from the truth.

            I would like you to quote for me, scripture and verse, where Christ states that because He has come there will be no more Prophets, and no more need for them. I’m ever amazed at how EV’s and others hammer away at the “false prophet” and “false spirit” concept. While true, they exist and have existed, and will ever exist. Why don’t you move past that stumbling block and pay attention to the rest of the Bible? Let’s try Ephesians 4 for instance, beginning with verse 11. Why do we need Apostles and Prophets? “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the UNITY of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God…that we hence forth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine…”. *bold lettering added*

            You make many “false” assumptions about things you know nothing of Mike, but as Christ Himself stated, “Forgive them for they know not what they do”. Do not concern yourself with my “spiritual well-being”, we each have enough to do taking care of our own. Don’t teach me what you “believe” to be false, teach me what you “believe” to be true. In this way we can establish a common ground. According to your description of being “saved”, I am anyway, so no worries.

            When we learn Who and What our Savior is, as the Son of God, then we come to know and understand exactly Who His Father is. It is then and only then that what you refer to as “rules, regulations, laws , policies” are not that at all, they are a joy and a blessing, for we freely give, not by commandment nor constraint. You see, we truly do learn line upon line, precept on precept as we move through 3 levels of obedience. First – we choose obedience because we fear punishment. Second – we choose obedience because we desire the attached blessings. Third – We come to know God and willing do whatever He requires of us because we LOVE Him, AND we love our fellowman.

            I know what I know, and no ridicule, no persecution, no warning can or will EVER change what I know. My search has been with a VERY open mind, and led ONLY by the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost, through fervent prayer and fasting and a thirst for knowledge and truth . I know my God, Whom I worship and glorify through His ONLY begotten Son – my Lord and my Savior, Jesus Christ. ♥

  5. Something very simple, but does the Bible say that in 2013, we should be construction on a temple in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil?

    For that matter, does the Bible say that from April–October 2013, these are the things the Lord wants you to focus on?

    With thousands of years of prophecy under our belts, it’s not surprising that most of what modern prophets teach is the same old same-old. When Jesus Christ walked the earth, He didn’t teach much that was new, either. Of course, methinks all of this is a smaller symptom of a larger issue: without living prophets, why would anyone believe the Bible in the first place?

    HTH.

  6. Keith;

    I would like to discuss your blog with you… respectfully and with integrity… however, I need some assurance that you are willing to do so in good faith. Are you willing to give me some assurance that you will not block me if you find yourself unable to counter my responses to your blogs?

    1. D. Lawrence,
      All you have to do is read my comments on my other posts and you will see how I conduct myself with those with whom I disagree. Also, look up at the top of the page and read through my comment policy. If you can abide by those rules, then you will not have any problems with me.

  7. (Really? If this is true, then I can’t help but wonder why there hasn’t really been anything new in… forever.)

    Keith,
    I would also ask why there is so little new teachings in the Bible, considering the THOUSANDS OF YEARS it covered. With your proclaimed knowledge of the Bible, can you claim that there is no repeating of an principal in your choice of the cannon of the Bible? With your knowledge of Bible times, can you claim that the Prophets did not repeat the same teachings over and over again?
    This is important because of the way you say it is wrong for God’s leaders today to repeat old teachings.

    fred

  8. (What I am questioning is why do Mormons need a prophet to declare these types of things which are so basic to morality?)
    Keith,
    I would have to ask the better question!
    Do we need a Prophet today, or should we rely on Christian scholars, who do not agree with each other, as other Christians do?

    fred

  9. If the Bible is all man needs then why are there Preachers, Pastors, and Ministers, Cardinals, Fathers. and Popes or even churches? People can read the Bible on their own. And in so doing don’t need churches or someone to preach to them.

    So Mormon leaders who talk about not doing and teach to not do: drugs/drinking, don’t gamble, don’t have sex with abandon with everyone you can, stay away from porn, acting on homosexual feeling/behavior is wrong, and much more. And teach to do: honor your spouse and children, serve your fellow man, marriage between a man and woman only, be honest in all you do, many, many other things but more importantly – read scriptures, always remember that Jesus died and was resurrected for us, and always pray to God, are evil, immoral leaders?

    Why do some Christian churches have revivals and people get excited about it? Why do people get excited when there is a huge meeting in a stadium where Ministers like Rev. Billy Graham or Rev. Jesse Jackson, or insert another name, come to speak? Why do Catholics get excited when the Pope comes to their country or city to hold Mass, or makes appearances at his balcony?

  10. I’m wondering if you watched Conference today Keith, and I’m interested as to what you would have to offer me that the Church doesn’t offer me. How would my life be better in a spiritual sense, and possible even a physical sense. ♥

    1. I only saw one session and was in and out during it. Like I mentioned, I have been sick. However, I would like to answer your question, but can’t get into it today. Being sick yesterday and today has put me behind in writing our newsletter. It has to be done before I lay down my head tonight.

    2. Excellent question, Cherib. I’ve asked that one myself, and it is the one question that seems to completely render anti-Mormons speechless. They seem to take great delight in tearing down every. single. aspect. of the Church, but when push comes to shove, really have nothing of value to replace it with.

      So. Here are my “solutions.” Don’t like the prophets? No problem. Don’t listen to them. Fine. Don’t accept the Doctrine? Leave. Don’t believe in the Restoration? Great. Don’t join. Reading some of the responses here certainly begs the question… “Why do you care?” If you don’t believe in living prophets, why do you care what they say? If you don’t believe in the Restoration, why quibble over its teachings? It simply doesn’t make sense.

      And if your goal is to get people to “come out of Mormonism,” it begs the question, “Why?” What DO you have to offer to take its place?

      The answer, of course, is a resounding “Nothing.”

      Oh, it’s “Traditional Christianity,” or “Evangelical Christianity” you say. Great. Which one? Should we embrace TULIP, such as Presbyterianism (and a host of other denominations) teaches, or Arminianism (as the Methodists and others) teach? They are diametrically opposed doctrines of salvation. They both claim the Bible as their authority. Or should we just accept “Sola Fidianism,” or “Salvation by Faith Alone,” even though it is *NEVER* taught in the Bible, and doesn’t appear on the Christian landscape until the 16th century, which actually ALREADY proves that Mormons are saved (all active Mormons believe in, and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior)? Oh, and it you suggest that Mormons somehow believe in the “wrong Jesus,” rendering their salvation moot, then show us, Biblically, where the Trinitarian Jesus, which also didn’t exist until the 4th century, is a de facto “rule out” to salvation?

      I’m sorry, but Cherib is spot-on. Those who oppose Mormonism have, in my experience, ZERO to replace it with.

      So why try? Why do you care?

      1. I think Christians have a lot to offer Mormons. For example, you say that you don’t believe in a Triune God. True, the word “Trinity” or “Triune” God is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, there are places in the Bible that make it clear that there is a firm foundation for a triune God.

        One God, three separate and distinct persons. But this doesn’t make sense, does it? Our human minds can’t fully understand it. But that doesn’t mean is isn’t true. Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

        Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” God the Father prophesies that He (Jehovah/Yahweh) will be pierced, and people will mourn for Him. Jesus Christ is pierced through his hands and feet at his crucifixion, and pierced through the side with a spear while on the cross. Revelation 1:7 confirms this fulfillment of prophecy, “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen”.

        John 1:1-14
        In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

        verse 14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

        The Word was Jesus, who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was not only with, but actually WAS God. John lays it out clearly.

        John 8:56-59
        Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

        57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

        58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

        Who else said “I AM”? God the Father, as recorded in the Old Testament, Exodus 3:14, “And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you”.

        Jesus used those words to tell the Jews that he WAS God. They understood what He was saying; they were well acquainted with that scripture, and tried to stone Him for claiming that He was God.

        So yes, Christians have MUCH of value to offer Mormons. Through the work of the Holy Spirit, we hope to show you the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. No Christian that I know of claims that his church has a lock on salvation. The body of Christ is not limited to one church or denomination.

        Colossians 3:15-16
        15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

        1. <>

          The Bible teaches that there are three that comprise the Godhead, and that those three are “one” in unity, purpose, and intent (John 17:3) NOT one in actual ontological being. In fact, nowhere in the Bible is it taught that there is only one God in existence. And no, Isaiah 43:10 and 44:6 do NOT teach that either, if read in any semblance of context. They are comparative, and not declarative, in nature.

          The core of the trinitarian dogma is the word (and the ONLY word in Koine Greek that means “consubstantial” or “one in actual substance and being,” and that is the word “homousios.” It is conspicuously absent from the Bible, both explicitly and implicitly. It simply is not there. The dogma would not exist for 325 years… which begs the question, were Christ and the Apostles really “Christian” since they had no knowledge of Trinitarianism? And what of John 17? Why, in the midst of this profound and impactful teaching moment, didn’t Christ teach them that the Godhead was Triune, and one in actual ontological substance?

          <>

          You mean the Reformed dogma of Salvation by Faith Alone, which is not only NOT taught in the Bible (at all), but didn’t exist until the 16th century, when Martin Luther invented it (and then repented of it on his deathbed)?

          No thank you. That, to me, represents “another gospel” than what Jesus Christ taught.

          <>

          Then why persecute and harass the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

          1. Sorry… I guess I don’t have the hang of quoting others’ statements yet… they just disappear. ;(

          2. hi D. Lawrence,

            Please don’t take these posts personally. I’m not trying to tell you what you believe, I’m telling you what your church teaches you to believe.

            “…nowhere in the Bible is it taught that there is only one God in existence.”

            I guess you choose to ignore the verses I quoted. Of course you know that they were from the King James version. I wonder if they were translated incorrectly. Did Joseph Smith translate them “correctly”? The most notable thing that I remember about the Joseph Smith translation is that he inserted prophesies about himself in Isaiah, or was it Genesis?

            Here is a really STRANGE translation in the JST:

            Luke 10:22

            All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

            JST Luke 10:22
            All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.

            “…You mean the Reformed dogma of Salvation by Faith Alone, which is not only NOT taught in the Bible (at all),…”

            I think you need to review the Bible, including the JST, ’cause with all due respect, you’re missing a few things.

            Acts 16:25-33 “…And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” The book of Acts, sir, was written well before the 16th century.

            It seems that you are calling this exchange “persecution and harassment”. Do these terms mean something else in Mormon terminology? I hope this is a civil, intelligent debate, not harassment or persecution. When Mormon missionaries come to my door and challenge my beliefs, I don’t call it persecution, nor harassment. I understand that they do it intending goodwill. I greet them with open arms and invite them in- and we talk about these same things. Is someone forcing you to read and comment on Keith’s blog?

            Blessings,
            Steve

      2. Long time afterward I know, but I think a reply is needed to the “Why do you bother?” question.

        This apparently comes as a surprise to some and it baffles me (not really, just like these people aren’t truly wondering why people “bother”)… but here goes and it is pretty simple.

        Some people care when they see lies being told. Some people care when they see an organization built on lies bilking gullible people of money. So, when these people see enough of it, they, being healthy, empathetic humans, may feel inspired to sound some type of alarm. That is really it.

        Surely the concept of saving someone from peril doesn’t need explanation?

    3. Sorry, Cherib. I had forgotten you posted this. Here is what I have that your Church cannot offer you. It makes all the difference too. I have been forgiven of my sins. The LDS Church can only offer you a WAY for your sins to be forgiven, which is dependent upon the level of your performance.

  11. Keith, your premise is flawed. Receiving education about the gospel in our day using scriptures, as you said have already instructed any bible believer, supplements what latter-day saints do every day, study the scriptures. Our prophets are moral teachers, not all prophets are like Moses (Deut. 34: 10-12). Our, nor were most of the prophets what you seek – which seems you expect a Nostradamus. You are seeking a sign. God revealed many “new” things over a couple of decades to Joseph Smith…as it was for Israel, God has not raised up a prophet like unto J. Smith…but it is the prophets duty to guide the church as a whole. In my opinion, nothing new is needed…for the whole point is for us to spread the gospel to the world. Good luck for whatever you’re looking for.

  12. So Mike, I suppose the New Testament Chritians didn’t need Paul? Modern prophets have expounded where divided Christians have stopped. Examples: true nature of the Godhead, our potential to be like the Father, the truth of the fall of early Christianity, restoring the church structure w/o a paid ministry, missionary force, continuous scripture, the Pre-mortal existence, a proper understanding of why prophets anciently had plural wives, and much more. Everything from the bishop’s storehouse to polygamy can be understood by latter-day saints. Though not everyone is perfect, we have a perfect teaching in our scriptures and with the spoken word, as it was throughout the entire Bible – God has a pattern, it is seen in the LDS faith.

    1. Hi Scott. It’s real late so I’ll make this brief. Concerning Paul , he was chosen by
      Jesus to teach His gospel of salvation ( Rom 1:16) . Those that had followed Jesus
      and learned from Him when He walked the earth were also sent out to preach after
      His resurrection when they were empowered to do so . The truths they taught about
      Jesus and the truth about how a person can be forgiven and receive eternal life were
      preached far and wide , and multitudes embraced their teaching . This same gospel
      of salvation is available today . Paul’s warnings in verses like 2Tim 2 as well as
      Gal. 1:8-9 are still a valid and needed criteria to use in evaluating any prophet
      of these latter days , lest we be misled by their counterfeit gospels . This is the
      point I was making . Now concerning what you mentioned about Mormon leaders
      revealing the truth on things such as the true nature of the Godhead and “our
      potential to be like the Father ” ; and ” the fall of early Christianity” ; and a
      “restoring the church structure w/o a paid ministry ” as well as ” a proper under-
      standing ” of polygamy . I have looked at each one of these doctrines as taught
      by Mormon authorities , and they all miss the mark . This all gives credence to
      the saying : ” they have taught for doctrine the commandments of men ” .
      No paid ministry ? Really ? If only your leadership in S.L.C. would allow their
      flock to know how much they are paid for directing the church , then perhaps
      we might all know the full truth about this alleged ” restored church structure w/o
      a paid ministry ” . I do hope you’ll take Jesus’ warnings seriously about
      spiritual deception in these days we live . Good decent people can be misled .

      1. Interesting comments. They do inspire a couple of questions, however.

        <>

        Why do you care? You obviously don’t believe in Mormonism, so… why do you care?

        We don’t agree with you. We don’t feel they miss the mark. We don’t agree with you about the Bible, either. As a Biblical scholar myself, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the doctrines of the Reformation are as foreign to the Biblical record as are the manufactured doctrines of Trinitarianism. Does that mean that I should start a “ministry” to trash everything that Evangelicals and/or Trinitarians hold to be sacred? Not if I truly want to follow Christ.

        Instead, we hold out the hand of fellowship and invite all to come to Christ, to keep what they have, and to add light and knowledge to that. Don’t believe that we have additional light and knowledge? No problem. Keep what you have and rejoice in it. But stop trashing what WE hold to be sacred.

        After all, Galatians 1:8,9 and 2 Tim 2 actually apply more to Evangelicals than Mormons, when you examine the invented doctrines of the Reformation in light of the Biblical record. The difference is in how we behave in response to this differences. We offer additional light and knowledge. We don’t tear down or denigrate. We follow the Savior.

        Anti-Mormons? Not so much. That, in itself, is very revealing to me.

        1. Mr Barksdale, what you said inspired some questions as well , so I ask
          you : Do you care ? You obviously don’t believe this ministry is legit or
          should even be in existence , so why are you even on this blog? Why do
          you care to be here? Now this statement of your’s is accurate when
          you said , ” you obviously don’t believe in Mormonism ” . You’re correct
          because the problem is Mormonism , not Mormons.
          You said , ” Does that mean that I should start a ‘ ministry’ to trash
          everything that Evangelicals and/or Trinitarians hold to be scared ? ”
          Sorry to inform you but you’ve elected to follow a prophet who instead of
          starting a ” ministry” to trash the beliefs of others he created a church organization whose leaders have trashed the beliefs of others !
          Of course I realize that with these men it really is’nt “trashing” they have
          engaged in , it’s only ” disagreement” , right? Now as far as your comment
          about your beliefs being torn down and denigrated is concerned let me
          remind you of some of the words coming from Mormon authorities about
          the beliefs of non-LDS who claim to follow Jesus : their religion was
          hatched in Hell; their christianity is perverted ; their church is part of what
          constitutes the “Church of the Devil” in these days ; they are pseudo
          christians ; they are cults ; their church is Babylon ; as such these people
          have no salvation . But Mormons are the true christians ! So the
          obvious question for you is , don’t like this ministry ? No problem .
          Don’t accept the beliefs of those who run this ministry ? Leave .
          Why do you care? Mr. Barksdale , were the Mormon authorities who
          made these statements following Christ ?
          Quite frankly , the reason this ministry is here is to do something very
          important , it’s to warn others of deception —-spiritual deception in these
          latter days . Perhaps you’ll be more comfortable considering this from a
          Mormon : ” Convince us of our errors in doctrine , if we have any, by
          reason, by logical arguments , or by the Word of God and we will ever be
          grateful for the information and you will ever have the pleasing reflections
          that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your
          fellow beings from the darkness…” [ apostle Orson Pratt ] .
          Concerning Paul’s warning in Gal. 1:8-9 , I’m glad to see you agree that
          this is a valuable criteria in evaluating the teachings of religious leaders
          —Mormon or others — who would arise long after Paul was gone.
          As far as your statement that your leaders hold will out their hand of
          fellowship to others to come to Christ and they can keep what they
          have ( their false doctrines ? ) and then more light and knowledge from
          your leaders will be added to these false beliefs ? Interesting.
          I think when it comes to asking myself if I really do need to follow the
          Mormon prophet as THE prophet , Seer , and Revelator for these latter
          days , I have to say that there is very little if anything in the way of moral
          teachings from him that I don’t already have embraced as a Christian
          who looks to the Bible ( and some common sense) for guidance in this
          area. As for teachings from Mormon leaders about God /Jesus , or what
          is required to receive a right relationship with God and eternal life goes ,
          I have to say no thanks to their “additional light and knowledge ” that
          they are offering about these.
          Remember , false prophets mislead sincere decent people . That’s why
          Jesus said to Beware —-Matt 7:15.
          Take care.

  13. Why is Jesus Christ even mentioned in the LDS faith when they believe he is just a commoner like everyone else

    1. I’m trying to figure out if this is real, or if it is some kind of joke. A helpful suggestion might be for you to learn a bit more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before you make any more such ridiculous statements. Just a thought.

      Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the literal son of Almighty God, the Lord, Savior, and Redeemer of the whole Earth, and that it is ONLY through His atoning sacrifice that we can be saved.

  14. Hi keith! Have you ever spoken with any of the “prophets” in the mormon church. Is it truly just a man blinded by sin speaking or an evil spirit? Just a thought I had as I was looking at the picture of the man behind the pulpit.

  15. (Something very simple, but does the Bible say that in 2013, we should be construction on a temple in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil?)

    I would like to see where the Bible says it is all of what God has to say to us. In my studies, I have found that the cannon of the Bible was decided on by Church Fathers who were not prophets or apostils. Since the Church Fathers could not agree on what should and what should not be in the Bible, there is more than one cannon of the Bible.

    Furthermore, I have found that the idea of Sola Scriptoria was added by other Church Fathers who also did not have authority from God to add that idea to the Bible.

    fred

    1. Just a slight correction… we should be careful not to sully the good names of the Church Fathers by laying Sola Scriptura at their feet. This doctrine didn’t come along until long after they were gone.

      I have had the same question, however… it is a good one. WHICH Bible is the ONLY complete infallible and inerrant one? The one WITH the Apocrypha, or the one without? Luther’s “translation,” or the 66 books that we have now? And who had the authority to make that declaration?

      “History” or “tradition” you say? That only holds water if you are Roman Catholic. 🙂

  16. Acts 8, I feel it’s pretty clear that one must have authority –

    9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

    10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

    11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

    12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

    13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

    15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

    16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

    17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

    19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

    20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

    21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not aright in the sight of God.

    22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

    23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

    24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

    25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

    26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

    27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

    28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

    29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

    30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

    31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

    32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a alamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

    33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

    34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

    35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

    36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

    37 And Philip said, If thou abelievest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

    40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Cæsarea.

    *Prophets and Apostles TAUGHT the words of Christ, they weren’t constantly receiving revelation, except at times necessary, in and through the Holy Ghost.* ♥

  17. I am very frustrated, I wrote a rather pointed post on the need for “proof”, and it was almost immediately deleted – reason???? ♥

    1. I do not delete posts. I am sick and have been since 2am Sunday morning. Forgive me for not approving all of the comments as fast as I normally do. I am getting better though and my fever is down to a 99.6. Naps are good for the soul and a bunch of other things too. 😉

      1. I’m sorry to hear you are ill and hope you are better soon. I realize that when we are ill things will get behind. ♥

  18. (I only saw one session and was in and out during it. Like I mentioned, I have been sick.)

    I also hope you get feeling well.
    Remember, if you want to see, hear, or read the rest of conference, it is available at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints’ web site.

    fred

  19. @ Bobbie: The Jews are the ones who believe Jesus of Nazareth was an ordinary Jewish man who preached. The Jews believe Jesus did not meet their criteria of their Messiah according to Jewish scripture and belief.
    Muslims respect and revere Jesus and believe Jesus is a Prophet, and believe He was born to a virgin as commanded by God.
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) believes Jesus is the literal Son of God, born to the Virgin Mary. He is our Savior. Mormons believe that it is only through His Atoning sacrifice that we can be saved. The First Article of Faith of the LDS church states: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

  20. Steve I am responding to a post that you sent to D. Lawrence, you stated: “I’m not trying to tell you what you believe, I’m telling you what your church teaches you to believe.” As members of the Church of Jesus Christ, why would you how are not a member, assume to teach a member what the Church teaches, as we are perfectly aware of what is taught.

    The part you may not understand is – what the Church teaches is revealed from the Lord Himself, through His mouthpiece, the Prophets. How can we know these things are true? The very same way anyone, member or not, can know the exact same things – through a personal witness from the Holy Ghost – he whose witness is available to all as long as they don’t view him as a “false spirit”.

    While you say the KJV of the Bible makes it “clear” that there is a triune god, it has made it abundantly clear to me that the Godhead is Three separate and distinct personages. Further proof is that Christ speaks to His Father, His Father introduces Christ and refers to Him as His Son, not as Himself, and the Father sends the Holy Ghost to witness truth in the place of His Son Who was soon to be crucified. All Three are Gods and comprise the Godhead.

    Christ says clearly that the glory belongs to the Father, and that the Father is “greater” than He is. I don’t have to tell you that their “Oneness” is in unity of purpose and will, which Christ also states. Each fulfills a purpose in the lives of mankind. God the Father is over all and is the Supreme God in which we, as members of the Church worship. Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God the Father, which makes Him Divine. It is under the direction of the Father that Christ created earth, man, and all that is in/on the earth. Christ is our Savior, our Lord, our Redeemer, but we do not worship Him – though He IS a God, we worship God, the Father of Christ, through His Son. We can only return to the Father through His Son. The Holy Ghost, also a God is a witness of all truth, we do not worship him.

    In the Old Testament Christ is known by a variety of names, Lord, Jehovah, Yahweh and yes, even God. How is this so? Because He created mankind under the direction of His Father, making Him [Christ] also the Father of mankind, or the God Who created mankind. Not so mysterious, not so difficult to comprehend.

    There is no religion nor combination of religions that offer what the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ has made available to every living soul – past, present and future – or to me personally. I thank my Father in Heaven every single day for the many blessings of truth and knowledge that He has poured out on me. ♥

  21. Cherib, I’ll comment on what you said to me on 4-10 . First off , you find that my
    repeated reminder of false prophets in these latter days is a stumbling block that
    I need to get past ? That statement speaks volumes about you . It seems that
    Mormons like you have no problem listening to the on-going warnings we hear every
    day about being safe from dangers like identity theft, consumer frauds , and pollutants
    in our food and water , but when someone who cares about your spiritual well being
    issues on-going reminders about detecting spiritual counterfeits , then suddenly this
    is treated as some kind of activity someone must get past . With an attitude like that
    know wonder people get misled by false prophets .
    Now you said that you’re not here to convince anybody of anything and that you are
    concerned that false interpretations of Mormon doctrine are addressed . Is that what
    you’re saying ? If so I have to again remind you that near the beginning of our dialogue
    you said , in relation to the alleged great apostasy , that Christianity did not die , it only
    “sickened ” . Your church published a statement that ” Christianity sickened and died” .
    I asked you if I should accept your statement or theirs , did you answer that question?
    Did the Holy Ghost give you your comment , or was only a guess on your part ?
    Quite frankly, this issue is a good example of why I have made it a point to try and
    evaluate MormonISM by looking at what their leaders have taught, rather than what
    rank and file members may say. It’s the difference between followers and leaders.
    So when you said that I merely offer my ” own perception ” which is far from the truth ,
    you should be careful where that type of allegation takes place .
    Now , you also said that I made some false assumptions . Let’s look at some things
    you said to see if they are false assumptions : You said to me : ” according to your
    description of being ‘saved’ I am already saved , so no worries.” Now perhaps you
    can let me know where I described to you what my description of being saved is ?
    Also , you asked me to give you a statement by Jesus that states that because He
    has come there will no more prophets ,and no more need for them . Did I ever say
    that there would be no more need for prophets? What I said was we don’t need
    ” Mormon prophets/apostles” . I could explain what the New Testament reveals about
    “prophets” , but you can study the N.T. and see what type of arrangement concerning
    prophets it reveals for yourself , but you’ll have to suspend what you’ve learned from
    your apostles and instead receive what Jesus’ original apostles taught—in context.
    Lastly , you mentioned a testimony of sorts about how you have found the truth about
    who Jesus and His Father and because of that you have the true faith , in so many
    words . While I can’t ultimately judge your heart I can evaluate what Mormon
    authorities have taught about God, Jesus , salvation etc. to see if Mormon doctrine
    is of God , or a close counterfeit . What did these men teach about God ? If you
    submit to their authority and embrace their doctrines about God/Jesus etc , then if
    they are misguided you also are in peril —Isa. 9:16 .
    Now , you said in reply to Steve, above, you said about Jesus : “….but we don’t
    worship Him —-though He is a God , we worship God , the Father of Christ….”
    Are you actually saying that you don’t worship Jesus ? Golly, Cherib if that is your
    testimony then YOU are really deceived .What do the Bible, and even the Book of
    Mormon teach about this ? I’ve heard some Mormons say this same thing , so it’s
    a good reason for me to be reluctant in believing your testimony that you know the
    truth about Jesus Christ—-that the Bible reveals .

    Now that’s all I have for this thread . I leave you to step back and study the Bible
    about Jesus and what it reveals about a authentic , personal , relationship with Him.
    Mormons are sincere decent people . Sincere and decent people can be misled by
    false, imitation, prophets arising in the latter days .We are in latter days . Jesus said
    for all to thus, Beware —-Matt 7:15; 24:11.

  22. I find it most interesting that EV’s believe they are authorities on truth and that their mission in life is to open the eyes of poor, deceived souls “like” me. Your ignorance Mike, “speaks volumes” about you. FYI, I’m not led by “false prophets”, or false anything else. Also, there is no “alleged” apostasy. I studied the “great apostasy” in a public school when I was in the 7th grade, and have continued that study to this day. Until Junior High I had never heard of an apostasy. My school was not affiliated with the Church in any way, just so you know.

    As far as Christianity “sickening and dying”, mankind and religionists have always had “fragments” of truth, so sure, there were people who “believed” in Christ. I would say that what Church Authorities meant by “sickened and died” is there was no authority left on the earth to act in God’s name. If there was, the Catholics are the only ones having that authority as they claim, or the Church of Jesus Christ as they claim a restoration of that authority through those holding the original keys of the Priesthood. The Priesthood of God is the living part of God’s Church, without the Priesthood a church is dead.

    As I’ve stated before, I’m grateful for the knowledge that I have received from my God and your God, I’m thankful for the guidance and influence of the Holy Ghost that is available to each and every person on the face of this earth. I’m am grateful for continued revelation both personally and through inspired leaders. I’m also for the great love that fills my heart as I treasure up truth, and for the love I have for my fellowman. I will always share what I know because of that love.

    I restate, “There is no religion nor combination of religions that offer what the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ has made available to every living soul – past, present and future – or to me personally. I thank my Father in Heaven every single day for the many blessings of truth and knowledge that He has poured out on me.” May the Lord bless you in your endeavors as choose to open your eyes, your ears, and your heart to the “fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” ♥

  23. Cherib, you said, ” I’m not led by false prophets or false anything else.” But evidently
    you are led by a false notion , feeling, that confirms to you to not worship Jesus !
    That testimony of yours is why I seek to warn you of spiritual deception . You also
    said that you are grateful for the knowledge you’ve received from God and the guidance
    of the Holy Ghost , but all the spiritual blessings can’t measure up to being misled
    about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A relationship with Jesus involves more
    than just being obedient to do what He asks in scripture concerning our lifestyle , our
    morals etc. it involves a intimate one-on – one interaction with Him , a daily praising
    and WORSHIPPING given directly to Him as our Lord . This pleases the Father —
    Jn 5:23 . May you one day lay aside your Mormon literature and take the Bible and
    see this wonderful saving truth .
    Take care.

  24. (John 1:1-14
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing wa

    s made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    verse 14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    The Word was Jesus, who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was not only with, but actually WAS God. John lays it out clearly.)

    Steve,
    Since you folks teach that God had. no beginning, what is the beginning spoken of here refer to?

    Also, what did God do before the “beginning”spoken of?

    fred

  25. Hi fred,

    John is saying that Christ has always existed with God the Father. Three persons, one God that we cannot fully comprehend. What existed before the world was formed out of nothing (“ex nihilo”) we do not know.

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    1 Corinthians 1:27-29
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    You ask about the “beginning” as if you expect a clear, easily answer. Neither you, my friend, nor anyone else can fully comprehend God. Sorry I can’t answer your questions.

    Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

    6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

    Mike wrote of spiritual deception above. I agree with him.
    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

    1. (You ask about the “beginning” as if you expect a clear, easily answer. Neither you, my friend, nor anyone else can fully comprehend God. Sorry I can’t answer your questions.)

      Steve,

      I have found nothing in the Bible where God said He has stopped teaching us through His Word.
      God has revealed more about Himself through His Church leaders in these latter days.

      Here is a question you should be able to answer.
      Since your belief that God will not give more knowledge about Himself is a major part of why you think The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not a true Christian church, will you point out to me where God said He has stopped giving us scripture.

      fred

  26. (Just a slight correction… we should be careful not to sully the good names of the Church Fathers by laying Sola Scriptura at their feet. This doctrine didn’t come along until long after they were gone.)

    Lawrence,
    I would like to clear up who I was calling a “Church Father”. On another web site that is trying to teach us Mormons that we are going to hell if we do not start thinking like they do, it was taught that after the Apostils Jesus that had chosen died there were no more Prophets.

    However, there were men with authority from God to correct false teachings that started creeping in to God’s Word. They were called “Church Fathers”. Now a days there is no need for these Church Fathers because all that could be taught falsely has already been corrected.

    The problem is that there is no one today that has authority from God to tell us which Church Fathers were true Church fathers and which were false Church Fathers, so we only have Christian scholars to argue over the differences.

    fred

  27. Mike R., I would be interested in you showing me one single scripture where we are told to worship Jesus Christ, and I can show you many where Christ Himself states that “glory” or “worship” belongs to the Father. As members of Christ’s Church we worship God the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don’t know where you come up with your information, but I get mine – not from any book or manual – from the scriptures, the Bible included. Now I will acknowledge that the difference between your understanding and mine may be nothing more than semantics, however, be very careful when you call anyone’s witness of truth “false”, as you are quite possible describing your own witnesses.

    The difference between you and me is you see God the Father and His Son as One in person, I don’t. I see Them as one in purpose, truth, and united in ALL things, EXCEPT Being.

    I give praise, honor and gratitude to my Savior for the price He paid for all mankind – if you refer to that as worship, then so be it. It is by honoring the Son that I worship the Father. In Matthew 4:10, who is Jesus telling satan to worship? Himself? Then why didn’t He say, “Worship me satan for I Am your God?” ♥

  28. Cherib, you asked for a single verse where we are told to worship Jesus ? You also
    asked where I was getting my information from that teaches that it is normal christian
    behavior to worship Him . This information is in the Bible . One of the most important
    messages of the N.T. is the revealing of the identity of Jesus Christ. Once His disciples
    became aware of just who He was they rendered worship TO HIM . Remember many
    of these disciples were Jews as such they understood their history and their God who
    delivered them out of Egypt . Now with that in mind study these wonder scriptures:
    Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14 and Psalms 99:1-9 ; and then Matt. 14:33 . Jesus is worthy to be
    worshiped ! The angels are even told to worship Him —Heb 1:6 . ( by the way, in Matt 4:10 , which you referenced , Jesus did’nt need to say to the Devil to :
    ” Worship me satan for I AM YOUR GOD ” , He was satan’s God but telling satan to
    worship Him would be useless for Satan —but not for men because Jesus/Jehovah
    said to the Jews : ” I AM THY ( your) GOD ” —Ex 20:5 , and they worshiped Him !
    Cherib , what I have said on this issue is of the Holy Ghost because it is consistent
    with written word that He inspired , He is the Spirit of truth . However what you have
    stated earlier is not consistent with what the Holy Ghost has caused the Biblical
    writers to record about Jesus . Therefore , I have no choice but to reject your testimony
    about this , it is only your own idea and as such has no authority .
    Now when you stated the following : ” The difference between you and me is you see
    God the Father and His Son as one in person , I don’t ”
    Is this statement of yours also from the Holy Ghost ? Is it accurate ? I don’t recall
    sharing with you that I believe that the Father and Son are ” one in person ” .
    This whole subject about Jesus started because I took your statement at face value
    where you said that you, ” do not worship Jesus “. I believe if you rightly understood
    what the Bible teaches about Jesus you could not make a statement like that .
    A personal relationship with Jesus Christ is knowing Him , an interaction WITH HIM
    through daily prayer and praise TO HIM , not just knowing about Him or following His
    example in how to live a moral lifestyle etc. To treat Jesus the same as the Father
    deserves is to respect the Father’s will —-Jn 5:23 .
    I hope you can take a step back and get alone with the Bible and study what it reveals
    about Jesus . My concern for the Mormon people is that they have been detoured by
    men who’ve mimicked the claims of Jesus’ apostles and therefore have embraced
    a gospel and a Jesus that are a imitation of the real ones —-Gal 1:8 .
    Jesus said to Beware of such men in the latter days .
    I merely offer a reminder of His warning because I care .

    1. There is no need to concern yourself with the “Mormon” people, we are doing fine. The Jesus I know is not an “imitation” of anything or anyone. I have studied the Bible probably more than you have, and I’m quite sure I probably understand it better than you. Do you believe in a triune god Mike? Or do you believe in God the Father and in His Son, Jesus Christ and the in Holy Ghost are Three separate and distinct Gods, with a singular purpose and united in truth. If not, you believe them to be one.

      The sad truth of if is that you base your misguided beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ by a singular scripture (Galatians 1:8) while ignoring Revelation 10 and 14:6. As for the Holy Ghost Mike, please tell me about him, who he is, and what he is – in your own words please.

      If I am worshipping the Son, I am worshipping the Father and vice versa, yet the Son (Christ) will tell you there is One greater than He, it is His Father. In Matthew 4:6, satan is tempting Christ, telling Him that God (the Father) will send angels to save Him (Christ).

      When I pray, I pray to my Father in Heaven (God) and I close in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.

      1. I am concerned with anyone who is not forgiven. Especially the Mormon people who trust in the own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Christ.

      2. Cherib, Keith, I and others here do care very much about the Mormon people,
        there’s a consequence to following false prophets and we wish to warn them .
        Hopefully this is always done in a loving manner . Now you said that you have
        studied the Bible probably more than me and therefore you sure you probably
        understand it better than me. It’s a good guess that you do probably study the
        Bible more than me , but understanding it better ? The Jewish leaders read the
        scriptures relentlessly but they missed a very crucial truth abut Jesus [ see .
        Jn 5:39-40 ] , likewise you have failed to see a vital truth about Jesus in the
        Bible, namely , that Jesus is directly worshiped . This is a normal response
        to anyone who obeys Jesus when He says ” Come to me ….” [ Matt 11:28 ].
        You asked for a single verse in the Bible where Jesus was worshiped , and I
        provided that , yet you ignored it . You said you don’t worship Jesus , now you
        state : ” IF I’m worshiping the Son, I am worshiping the Father and vice versa…
        …” How can you say ” IF” you’re worshiping the Son ? I’m sorry to see how
        you’re not sure about Jesus . There is nothing I can do to help you see the
        great liberating truth about what it is to know Jesus , compared to knowing
        things about Him but the Holy Ghost can change your heart and mind , that’s
        His role .You said that you pray to the Father and close that prayer in Jesus’
        name ? Great . I pray to the Father in heaven and close in Jesus’ name . Then
        I take time to talk to Jesus , pray to Him and give Him praise—worship Him.
        That’s my testimony ,
        Now I need to remind you that Gal. 1:8 is a valid criteria to use in evaluating
        the messages of prophets who come in these latter days . There are other
        verses also . Now it seems like you may be getting somewhat annoyed by
        this dialogue so I think it’s time for me to end it . There is nothing that
        Mormon apostles have to offer me about Jesus that is more spiritually
        fulfilling than what I have now . There is safety in sticking with the teachings
        of Jesus’ apostles in the New Testament and I hope one day soon you can see
        the benefit of exchanging your apostles for those.
        Take care.

    2. For all the EV’s who have a concern about “Mormons” –

      “There are those who chronically misunderstand the Church because they are busy trying to explain the Church from the outside. They are so busy believing what they want to believe about the Church that they will not take the time to learn what they need to learn about the Church. They prefer any explanation to the real explanation. Some prefer to believe the worst rather than to know the truth. Still others are afraid to part the smokescreen of allegations for fear of what they will see. Yet one cannot see the Louvre by remaining in its lobby. One cannot understand the Church by remaining outside. A non-believing but fair critic of the Church, a friend of mine, once said that the Book of Mormon was the only book some critics felt they did not need to read before reviewing it. . . .

      “Some insist upon studying the Church only through the eyes of its defectors—like interviewing Judas to understand Jesus. Defectors always tell us more about themselves than about that from which they have departed.

      “Some others patiently feed their pet peeve about the Church without realizing that such a pet will not only bite the hands of him who feeds it, but it will swallow his whole soul. Of course we are a very imperfect people! Remember, however, that while it is possible to have an imperfect people possessed of perfect doctrines (indeed, such is necessary to change their imperfections), you will never, never see the reverse: a perfect people with imperfect doctrines.”

      – Elder Neal A. Maxwell, an Apostle of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ –

      If you want to be “concerned”, be concerned about your own salvation ♥

  29. For the Mormon people who wonder why we have a concern for them , we are simply
    doing what a Mormon apostle once asked of non-Mormons :

    ” …convince us of our errors of doctrine , and if we have any , by reason, by logical
    arguments , or by the Word of God , and we will be ever grateful for the information
    and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in
    the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may
    see enveloping our minds.”
    [ apostle Orson Pratt , the Seer , p 15 ]

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