Jehovah’s Witness Memorial 3/26/13

Praying for the bread at the 2013 Memorial service of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

For the past 11 or so years I have attended the annual “Lord’s Evening Meal” conducted by Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Witnesses celebrate what most Christians refer to as communion only once a year. Before I describe the events of the evening, I’ll give a short summary of what usually happens at this ceremony.

Since this is the only religious holiday Jehovah’s Witnesses celebrate, attendance at Kingdom Halls for this service is much like Christmas and Easter is for Christians. If you are associated with the Witnesses in any way, and you could only make one meeting all year, this would be the meeting. Parking lots are filled and everyone is wearing their Sunday best. The service starts just after sunset.

A very respected man (an elder or someone of greater authority), will stand up in front of the audience and give a presentation that lasts approximately 45 minutes. The speaker will jump from verse to verse in the Bible attempting to prove that the only ones who are allowed to partake of the bread and wine are those of the anointed class, numbered at 144,000 members. Since there are very few Jehovah’s Witnesses who claim to be of the anointed (Witnesses are STRONGLY counseled against such claims), yet there are more than 16 million people in attendance at this event world-wide, the average Kingdom Hall does not have anyone who partakes of the emblems.

So basically, someone will get up and speak about how important it is that Jehovah’s Witnesses attend while emphasizing that practically no one will participate. They will then pass the emblems around, watch everyone reject them, then go home. Here is what happened last night.

The meeting I attended last night was at a local hotel. Because this is such a well attended meeting, sometimes a congregation will meet at a larger venue as their Kingdom Halls are usually only able to seat roughly 300 people at a maximum. I got there a little early because seating fills up fast. While I was updating my facebook status on my iPad, (Gotta love technology when it works!), a man, J.W.  came up to me and asked if I was alone. Since most congregations are not that large, it is very easy to pick out unfamiliar faces. J.W. asked if I have ever been to a meeting like this and I told him that I have. He asked if I knew that no one partakes of the emblems. I acknowledged this fact. He then asked, “Do you understand why?” I smiled and replied, “I do have some questions about that.” We exchanged phone numbers and he said that we could meet and talk about it later. He also said that he would check with me after the meeting and see if he could answer any of my questions.

Not three seconds after J.W. walked away, a lady sitting behind me said, “I noticed you have an iPad.” She informed me that the official web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses has a number of things that are easily downloaded to an iPad. We talked about that for a bit and then she started talking about some of their theology. She asked me a question; “Do you know what the world would look like if no one ever sinned?” I answered, “Well, I supposed we’d all be running around naked and living in a big Garden.”

“That’s right and one day Jehovah is going to return the earth to its original purpose.”

“You mean we’re all going to be running around naked in a big Garden?”

The thought hit both of us at the same time. Her facial expression changed as she thought about that, but continued to verbally affirm my statement. I kept thinking about all of the covers of Watchtower magazines I have seen over the years of happy families in a paradise earth. I didn’t say it, but all of those covers are wrong. If God is going to return the earth to its original purpose, then why are all of those people clothed? I could see from her face that she had never thought of that idea and was not exactly comfortable with it. I’m sure she could see from the look on my face that I wasn’t comfortable with it either.

The program started at 7:30 and I can’t help but say it, but the speaker was probably the worst one I have heard yet. It seems like I say that every year though. The Watchtower does not encourage individuality in any way whatsoever so when the men speak, there is no personality, no humor, no life and definitely no Spirit in their presentation. No good spirit anyway. Rather than give a detailed description of the sermon, I will address a few things that jumped out at me because I noticed they were different from previous years.

One thing that didn’t change though was the continuous use of the word “appreciate.” My wife Becky noticed it a number of years ago so now every time I attend a witness function, I always keep track of how many times the word is mentioned. In less than 45 minutes I heard a form of the word “appreciation” no less than 15 times. This is equivalent to the Book of Mormon using the phrase, “And it came to pass.” This has led me to the thought of one day showing up at the memorial with an idea for a game.

Every cult has terminology they use over and over so I think one day when I am old, wrinkly and can get away with it, I will make a few Bingo cards which contain a number of Jehovah’s Witness buzz words. I will bring a bunch of my old, wrinkly, decrepit friends and we will play Kingdom Hall Bingo. The first person to get a straight line of five words will immediately stand up and announce, “ARMAGEDDON!” If your card happens to include the word “appreciate,” you are sure to win.

Here are a few things that jumped out at me during the meeting. I would like to hear from others who attended the meeting to see if this is a uniform change or if it was just the personal bent of our speaker, but I never heard one mention of the Watchtower Society. No one ever even said the word “Organization.” That is very surprising. I also heard the phrase “personal relation with God” a few times. It seems that the Watchtower is listening to it critics and is trying to place more focus on Christ and less on the organization… at least publicly.

Another thing that was surprising was that in years past, there has always been a HUGE emphasis on the Witness idea that Judas was not present when Jesus instituted the New Covenant. The Watchtower teaches that Jesus dismissed Judas before He passed out the bread and wine. This is important within Watchtower theology because the only ones who are allowed to partake of the emblems are those who are part of the New Covenant. Since Judas was the betrayer, he couldn’t have been in the New Covenant. The surprising part is that NONE of this was mentioned.

I don’t know if there was a change in the outline or not, but the Watchtower outline that I have includes Luke 22:19-20. It is always read, and was again this year, but perhaps the reason the speaker did not include this information about Judas is because Luke 22:21 clearly states that, “The hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.” At every memorial I have ever been too, verse 19 and 20 are always read from Luke chapter 22, but they never read the very next verse. Whenever I get a chance to talk to a Jehovah’s Witness after the event, I have always asked about this contradiction. Why does the Watchtower teach that Judas was not present when Jesus plainly says he was? I don’t know if our speaker purposefully avoided this issue or not, but if it was avoided, it is a move which will keep many Witnesses from the embarrassment of having to reconcile their beliefs with the Bible.

Another small difference was that this year our speaker gave a rough estimate of how many people attended the memorial last year instead of an exact number. He said it was 16,000,000. In past years they always gave an exact number and more importantly also reported how many people partook of the emblems. Why is that important? This leads to a more important difference I noticed.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught that there are two classes of people with two different hopes. One group is numberless and is called “The Great Crowd.” They have the hope of living forever upon a paradise earth. They will never be with Jesus and will be ruled from heaven by a smaller group called “The Anointed.” This group is numbered at 144,000 members and expects to reign with Christ in the heavens. They are also the only ones who are allowed to partake of the emblems at the memorial. In the past, the Watchtower has taught that this group has been completed since 1935 so it was expected that the number would gradually decrease. It was expected that Armageddon would occur before the last of this group dies.

In 2007 there was a doctrinal change which allowed for the possibility of more people to claim to be of the anointed remnant. Since this change occurred, the number of those who partake of the emblems and claim to be of those with a heavenly hope has increased every year. In 2006 there were 8,758 partakers. According to this interesting article here, there were 12,604 who partook in 2012. That is an increase of almost 44% since the doctrinal change. When you take into consideration that world-wide Jehovah’s Witnesses only increase by about 2% per year, this is HUGE increase in partakers.

Is it possible that the number of those who partook last year was purposefully withheld to keep people from asking why the number of those partaking keeps increasing? Why is it that a group of people which is expected to die off is increasing in number? I’m looking for more doctrinal changes in the future to help explain this. In fact, there may be one in the works right now.

The last difference that I noticed from last night which I would like to discuss is a curious mention of 1st Corinthians 11:26. It is quoted every year, but not in the same way it was quoted last night. The speaker said something to the effect that after those of the heavenly hope are gone, the memorial will no longer need to be observed. He then quoted 1 Corinthians. 11:26 in support of that statement.

It reads in the New World Translation (NWT), “For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives” (I don’t know why the NWT places the word “You” in all caps, but it does).

Does anyone notice the problem here? The speaker said there will be no reason to observe the Memorial once all of the anointed have left, but in past years they have taught that there will be some anointed on earth when the tribulation begins. Is this a hint to an upcoming doctrinal change or was this just the inadvertent statement of one Jehovah’s Witness elder? Either way it is problematic to state that there will be no reason to observe the Memorial because a certain group of people has died off and then quote 1st Corinthians 11:26 when that verse specifically states that we are to continue to do it until Jesus arrives, not until the anointed remnant leaves. There is a big difference between the two ideas. Again, I would like to hear from some of you who attended the meeting. I am interested to hear if the things I noticed are a universal change or just some interesting anomaly.

I’d like to end by telling you two interesting little bits that had nothing to do with possible doctrinal changes as it was something I observed from two visitors. During the meeting the Witness who sat next to me and I were asked to give up our seats for some “sisters.” It was standing room only so I found a place on a side wall to lean against. I ended up standing next to a man who was obviously not a Jehovah’s Witness. When the bread was passed to me, I passed it to him and he stood there holding the plate for an unusually long time. He just stood there looking at the bread wondering if he should take it.

Remember the context of what has just happened. We stood there for roughly a half hour listening to a man who told us it was important that we observed this event, but not directly participate. No one else in the room had taken a piece of unleavened bread because they believe that they are not part of the New Covenant. (I didn’t take it because I didn’t want to cause a scene.) He just stood there looking at the bread.

An attendant noticed this and went over to retrieve the plate and pass it to the next person who was standing right next to him. There was a slight tug-of-war between the attendant and the man standing next to me. Finally the man relented and gave the attendant the plate, but then tried to take a piece of bread from the plate. It was quickly whisked away and given to the man standing right next to him. The man stood there dejected and confused.

I leaned over as whispered, “You’re not a JW are you?” He asked, “How’d you know? I am a Baptist and I believe that Jesus is my Savior.” I told him I would explain later. I handed him a note with my name and phone number on it and told him that Jesus was my Savior too.

The other interesting thing was that as the wine was passed, I noticed another visitor who was visibly upset. I had a good vantage point because I was standing up against the wall. As the wine glass was passed to her row, she told the attendant, “Don’t pass it to me or I will drink it.” Her arms were folded and she had a look of disgust on her face. She wasn’t loud or rude, but she spoke loud enough that I could hear her from four rows away.

I share these last two stories because I want people to understand just how sad this event is. I go every year as a reminder of how lost Jehovah’s Witnesses really are. It is especially hard for me to think about and watch the children. I pray for the people there and hope that they will one day have their eyes open to who Jesus really is and what He has done for us in the New Covenant. The title of the presentation was, “Appreciate What Christ Has Done For You.” I pray that someday some of them really will.

Editorial note: I have been meeting with the Jehovah’s Witness elder I met on a weekly basis since the memorial. If you would like to follow our conversations, click on the, “A Conversation With A Jehovah’s Witness Elder” tag.

29 Thoughts on “Jehovah’s Witness Memorial 3/26/13

  1. Keith, my experience yesterday was similar, and yes I noticed them referring to Jesus a lot and about loving God, and having faith in Jesus. I did however hear a couple of times, comments about the importance of being obedient to God’s organization. I also noticed the bit about 1Cor 11:26 and was making that point afterward to one of the guys foolish enough to talk to me. My meeting had no “road bumps” like the upset woman. I and another Christian friend went and my guess is we were the only non-JW there.

    Anyhow, as I said on your FB, I’m getting into some follow up meetings with them next week. Should be good. I’ll make sure I mention the Luke 22:21 problem; thanks for the tip!

  2. Melissa on March 27, 2013 at 9:00 pm said:

    I went last night. It was only my second time, so I haven’t gotten a real feel for what they do every year. The first time I went last year broke my heart, so I was prepared for a sobering experience. I **definitely** noticed the word ‘appreciate’ over used last night. I’m with ya on that one. I was surprised that 1 Corinthians was quoted but for a different reason. I was interested on why he put emphasis on doing it until Jesus returned. My take?? I think they’re gonna mess with the 1914 teaching soon. I could be totally wrong. But they’ve got to do something soon.

    On another note, it’s extremely interesting that you mention Judas. I never knew what the org taught about Judas. But I *clearly* saw that Jesus broke bread with him, and I had a snowball effect of a thought about this. I mean… they make Judas sound like the sinner of all sinners. Yet here Jesus is breaking bread with him?? He’s in the New Covenant?? Hmm.

    The speaker partook of the bread and wine, but that was it. He seemed very over confident. I made sure to say hello to the disfellowshipped in the back. One woman looked sincerely touched that I told her goodnight.

    I see something brewing at headquarters, but I just don’t know what.

  3. Rob Butterfield on March 27, 2013 at 9:49 pm said:

    Hey Keith, the guy that spoke the discourse at the Kingdom Hall I attended also stated that when the 144,000 are in heaven there will be no need to observe the “Lord’s evening meal” and said something to the effect that when Jesus comes there will be no need to observe the “Lord’s evening meal” on paradise earth either.
    And no, I didn’t hear anything about the Watch Tower or the Orginization but the speaker did say something about the 144,000 having a personal relationship with Jehovah is how they know they were chosen by Jehovah to enter the kingdom of God (He used John 3:3-8 saying that all who will enter the Kingdom of God will must be born again) but in reference to the 144,000.
    This was my 4th memorial yet the first time I remember hearing the word “appreciation” so many times.

  4. I went to the Jw memorial last nigh tnothing has changed as far as how they celebrate it ……… the practice is the same , their songs are the same but altered seem to be shorter in length at least it was last night.The Lords evening meal song was changed in tune and in length……. it did not envoked any emotion in me while I was there
    its a shame that the skip over so much and leave out so much when they are doing this celebration , when I mentioned to my husband what I thought of it, he said that they use to have more time to give more information but they only have 45 minutes to get every thing said and done……… Pity they have to put a time limit on things of this importance……..and of course for every time that Jesus was mention the Name Jehovah had to be mentioned…….. which takes your focus off what christ did for us……….Yes the father sent him to do this for us…….. and even in their sermon they said it was essential to have faith in Jesus , but again it was Jehovah that made that possible.. again focus taken off of what Jesus did for us. It was mentioned that 19 million world wide were present last year at the memorial and that they expect more this year…and there was alot of reference this year on obedience to Jehovah about 8 times though out the sermon……. However I am not sure that will be the case with everything that is going on with the organization these days. Just my take on last nights service.

  5. The Jehovah’s Witnesses dogma of only a literal limited 144,000 going to heaven is unbiblical. Jehovah’s Witnesses, active and faithful members are claiming to have the heavenly hope in greater numbers that now exceed their finite 144,000 limit. The trend is so apparent that the JW Governing Body changed their teaching to accommodate it. But is this ‘new light’ or the beginning of a schism?
    (John 10:16)
    After reading the entire 10th chapter of the Gospel of John without Watchtower influence,you will see that the ‘other sheep’ are the converted gentiles and not an earthly class with a separate limited literal 144,000 going to heaven. JW also claim Jesus has had his second coming (already) October 1914,one of many false teachings of the Watchtower

    Danny Haszard

  6. The JW New World Translation supposedly capitalizes “YOU” whenever it plural in the Greek, and uses “you” when it is singular.

    David

    AnswerJW.com DoorstepBible.com

    DOORSTEP BIBLE Answering Mormons & Jehovah’s Witnesses

    • The new version of the NWT Bible does not make this distinction. They have made plenty of editing decisions in the new gray bible!

      • Nice catch. I hadn’t noticed that yet. I guess they thought it look as dumb as I thought it did.

        • I hesitated to install the JW Library app, but really like a couple of the features, and how easy it is to compare their translation with a couple of others, and their Greek Interlinear. I am most interested in what they have ADDED to the bible… you know they have to comment and interpret everything for us (since we are not anointed like they are).

          At the top of the home page, you can find links for the Intro and Appendices. Appendix 1 has some explanations of all the changes they deemed necessary in this new version.

  7. Thanks, David for pointing that out. I’ve always felt like they were yelling at YOU people!

    • peter on April 3, 2013 at 3:02 am said:

      This totally off theme but the language thing – we forget the ambiguity in English. I spend a lot of tie in PNG. Plural and singular “you” are different words. Like Greek I guess.

  8. Trust . Whom can we trust ? How vital to our physical/emotional health to be able to trust
    a doctor , and what about being able to find a banker etc, that we can trust for our
    financial safety ? Since Jesus warned us all to beware of false prophets that will come ,
    (Matt 7:15 ) being able to evaluate those who claim to be prophet these days is crucial
    in being safe from their false teachings . Can we trust the Watchtower organization
    leaders to be reliable guides in spiritual truth, or are they false prophets ? Concerning
    this topic of the Lord’s supper , or Memorial, that the Watchtower invites the public to
    celebrate we should ask some questions since the Watchtower leaders advertise that
    Jehovah has chosen them as His sole mouthpiece , His prophet, to dispense important
    spiritual truths to mankind . Watchtower publications are used by Jehovah to accomplish
    this . The claims : ” Only this organization functions for Jehovah’s purpose and to His
    praise. To it alone God’s Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book.” [ W.T. mag
    7-1-197, p 402]. and : ” The Watchtower fulfills that need . Since 1879 it has been
    published regularly for the benefit of sincere students of the Bible. Over that extended
    period of time The Watchtower has consistently proven itself dependable .” [ NWT
    1950 ed. p 793 ] .
    The apostle Paul wrote that it is vital for those partaking of the bread and wine at
    the Lord’s supper to ” discern the body ” see 1Cor.11:29 NWT . Have Watchtower
    leaders correctly discerned the body here ? Practically from it’s beginnings until 1955
    the Watchtower taught that , ” this means my body” [ Matt 26:26 NWT] that the
    “body” here meant the Lord’s Body , the Christian congregation, not His fleshly body
    [ W.T. 3-15-1954 , p174] . But then later this was changed to mean His own fleshly
    body that hung on the torture stake at Calvary [ W.T. 1-15-1956, p 49]. This doctrinal
    flip flop was also seen in other Watchtower Society publications around that time .
    The Watchtower prophet failed to properly discern ” the body” in Matt 26:26 . This
    example of doctrinal vacillation by the Watchtower prophet is not an isolated one .
    Sadly , the Jehovah’s witness people have fallen for the very thing that Jesus warned
    us all about —false prophets . We simply can’t trust the Watchtower Society to be
    a consistently reliable source for Biblical truth . The Jehovah’s witness people deserve
    better . May they open a Bible , and without Watchtower publications, read it .Start
    with the Gospel of John and then Galations in doing so they can taste the reliable
    and wholesome source for spiritual food free of man made additives .
    Keith, keep up the great work you’re doing .
    Jesus is risen !!!!!!

  9. Victoria on March 29, 2013 at 12:20 am said:

    I never thought about going there. Every year they bring the colorful brochure to invite us to “celebrate” with them death of Jesus, which is so wrong on many levels. Anyway, now that I have read this article I am thinking about attending this event, it is late for this year, but I am hoping the next year, God willing. It is so sad but they are so hardened in their hearts. I remember a lady visiting our house with her 9 year old daughter. I started asking her about why she does not believe that Jesus is God. She immediately took her daughter to leave stating she does not want to confuse her daughter to which I replied that indeed she is confusing her by not letting her know that Jesus is true God. Yes, we need to keep praying for them, they are not beyond God’s saving hand.

  10. No one breathing is beyond God’s saving grace if they can believe. JWs need prayer. I was one for 18 years. Grace of God delivered me and made me free butI am truly grateful to God for learning Him as Jehovah, knowing Him as Jesus Christ and fully and freely experiencing Him as Holy Spirit. God will deliver as real believers out. They will come out from among them.

  11. Kim B on April 2, 2013 at 9:11 am said:

    Yes. There are quite a few JW’s that opened their bibles and started reading it for what it really says; They are called the ‘Conscience Class’ you can Google it, but there are some new things coming in the near future. Starting with the July Watchtower [Study edition] Also at the summer District Convention there is going to be some ‘New light’ and publication releases.

  12. John on April 2, 2013 at 3:49 pm said:

    Well written article. I too am a member of the Conscious Class.
    This religion is all I’ve known-so it’s valuable to me to see an outsiders perspective.

  13. Spike on April 2, 2013 at 3:51 pm said:

    Hi everyone.

    The ” conscious class ” are the JW’s who are awakening. Many of us partake at home. This years talk was quite frankly disgusting. The Governing Body are forbidding anyone to partake of the bread and wine. I think that this is a desperation move on the part of the leadership. Almost everything they teach is false and time is catching up with them. They have a 100% failure rate for their predictions. They were NGO’s with the UN, and are still part of the OSCE. They build multi- million dollar facilities with contributions and invest in hedge-funds while constantly asking for more money. They say our surplus should offset other’s needs, but they clothe and feed no one.

    They support the ideals of the UN and the OSCE while simultaneously saying these institutions will be destroyed. They also destroy families while supporting ” Satan’s ” organizations that support human rights. They believe they are a Queen, and that they will never see poverty. They will reap what they sow.

    Peace be with you all.

    Spike

    • Spike, I’m glad that you have come to see that the Gov. Body can’t be trusted
      to be reliable guides in spiritual truth . The question I would ask you is that in
      your post above you said that you are ” Jw’s ” , would you care to elaborate
      on that ? Thanks .

    • peter on April 3, 2013 at 3:08 am said:

      Spike, keep on what you are doing. But don’t shoot yourself in the foot. They feed and clothe many.

  14. Penalt Tardis on April 2, 2013 at 11:05 pm said:

    Just an FYI for you. The Watchtower dated July 15is going to come out that has a MAJOR doctrinal shift in it. Essentially it is going to be stated that the Governing body of the JW’s is the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ who essentially received God’s knowledge from him to disseminated amongst all the rest of the witnesses.

    More details can be found here.
    http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/new-light-watchtower-magazine-leaked-from-organization-weeks-ahead-of-general-release

    Apparently someone who is still in scanned it and emailed to this fellow. Oh, and hello from the exjw community of Reddit.

  15. Very glad to read this post. Glad that others see that the Memorial is a mass act of blasphemy. It is astonishing that this service in particular is the one that they invite ‘the worldlies’ to witness, given the magnitude of what is taking place. I should point out that I am an atheist, but even I can see how wrong this practice of ‘rejecting the emblems’ is. After 17 years of being a Witness, I am mighty glad to be out!

    • Timothy,
      THAT is a VERY good point. Why invite all of the “worldly people” to such a private, sacred event? Since JWs are not taught very good things about “worldly people,” why use this occasion to introduce them to all things Watchtower? There is no scriptural precedence for it. Where were the non-members in the first century?

  16. Nice post. I always tell my JW family when they invite me to the Memorial that had Jesus actually wanted any non-anointed “observers” to be present he would have had them at the Last Supper. Instead it was a completely private moment between his closest disciples, i.e. the Apostles. So, thanks anyway, but Jesus doesn’t actually want us there unless we’re going to partake!

  17. It is a cult. Their policies appear very bizarre to non-witnesses.

  18. Betrayed on April 4, 2013 at 11:26 am said:

    Ive been going pretty much my whole life, only stopped being a witness five years back but go to the memorial to keep the family happy. Ive got to admit I didnt pay a lot of attention to the talk as Ive heard it a million times but our speaker also said about not needing the memorial once it had all come to pass or some such wording… I remember because I heard several witnesses say out loud they’d never thought of that before.

    Liked the post, made me laugh a bit.

  19. ****UPDATE***
    I talked with a JW elder last week and he confirmed my suspicion about the outline. It was new this year.

  20. Tony on April 9, 2013 at 7:44 am said:

    Hello all here is a site that is linked to a new movement among Jehovah’s Witnesses which I believe has the potential to change the face of this world.

    https://anointedjw.org/

    I myself have being very encouraged by this site.

    They encourage Christians to reach out for the heavenly hope and demonstrating this by partaking of the Lord’s evening meal on Memorial night of Jesus death and sacrifice.

    I myself was once, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for many years, over 33 years in fact.

    From a study of the scriptures alone, without their literature, I came to the conclusion that all Christians should view Jesus as their mediator and therefore should demonstrate this by partaking of the emblems of the Lord’s evening meal.

    However I do believe that there will eventually be peace and paradise here on the earth where war will be a thing of the past and where wickedness also will not be found as all of mankind will eventually become part of God’s Kingdom here on earth (refer to the books of Daniel and Isaiah and Revelation), of which is in turn part of the much larger universal Kingdom of God where most of God’s intelligent creatures throughout the inhabited universe live as part of a universal brotherhood and who recognize the source of all life, the one who originally caused to happen all that is contained within this universe and indeed the grand universe itself, who do recognize him as the Heavenly Father or similar description in their own individual culture.

    I do not believe however that there will be a resurrection here back onto the earth, but into one of the Heavenly domains that exist out there either as a material being of a much higher order, or a inter-dimensional being or a spiritual being.

    I do believe that there are many planes or state of existence (density) or dimensions of space if you like that we cannot see between our physical 3d dimensional plane and the spirit planes of where God and his spirit creatures reside, where Paradise really does exists.
    There is much evidence around us to suggest this as well as scientific mathematical theory.
    Time is also relative to whatever state of existence we reside in.

    Hence in God’s spiritual domain time is not relative as time is very much integrated into particle physics (space and gravity and time continuum) and not the spiritual realms

    This is not to say that spiritual creatures do not utilize time, as they must to perform tasks in relation to God’s purposes as to his physical creation, but they are not governed by time themselves as I understand.

    Hence as a spiritual creature it would not be how old you are since the time you came into being, but rather how much you have progressed as to knowledge wisdom and ability.

    The difference however between God and his spirit creatures such as his mighty messengers, is that God is infinite, who has no beginning and no end (The Alpha and Omega), but God’s spirit creatures have a beginning but are eternal beings however they are (not immortal) as is God’s Eternal Son (who is immortal), who came from the Father.

    Jesus (Joshua or Yahshua),the God Creator Son, Logos) who is the mirror son of the Eternal Son and also is a mirror father of his Heavenly Father imbued of the (mother Holy infinite Spirit) of both of them, in their expressed image.

    As I understand many Christians do not believe this but another name that Jesus is known by in this regards is Michael (Who is like God?) Hence I do believe that it should be rendered as the “archangel of Michael” and not as is translated in most Bible translations as “Michael the archangel”.

    Notice that in both the books of Daniel and Revelation, Michael is not referred to as an archangel, but either a great ruler or mighty prince or great chieftain and only in Jude is Michael referred to as an archangel, which as it would appear to me was written from gnostic texts.

  21. Pingback: Follow Up On The Memorial- A Meeting With the Elders. | The Edge

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