Discussing New Light With A Jehovah’s Witness Elder

The Watchtower changes it doctrine so frequently, they had to come up with a doctrine to justify it. These changes are called “New Light.”

Our meeting started with a BANG and was full throttle for an hour and a half. Before I get into that, I want to explain how I arranged for us to be speaking about this topic today. If you read lasts week’s post, you saw how I took advantage of the opportunity to get into the study edition of the July 15, 2013 edition of the Watchtower magazine. Yesterday I read through the articles that pertained to the doctrinal change I have known about for months. After I read them all, I sent a text message to my elder friend. Here is our text conversation.

KW: Didn’t you once tell me that the faithful slave was 144,000 people?

JW: Yes

KW: I thought so, but now I am confused. That July edition we looked at last week says something else.

JW: I know. That’s new info. Haven’t read it yet. It’s gonna be discussed sometime soon 😉

KW: New info? How does that happen and how often?

JW: Proverbs 4:18. Studying God’s Word is an ongoning process. If new knowledge becomes evident, it is published. The Slave is supposed to provide food at the proper time. And that’s what he does.

KW: From what I read, the slave isn’t chosen until the tribulation Has that happened yet?

JW: I haven’t read the articles yet. They are the study material for our meeting end of September.

Fast forward to our meeting. When I walked into the restaurant, my Witness friend was in the Men’s room and his son was sitting at a table. I sat down at the table and talked with his son until my friend came out of the Men’s room. When he came to the table, he slid a desert over and gave it to me. He jokingly pronounced, “This is from the faithful and discreet slave. It is the proper food for the right time.” We both laughed.

KW: You know, I read that whole article and I’ve got some questions.

JW: Well, that’s a good one to read.

KW: I looked for the slave in this book (referring to the “teach” book) and it isn’t even mentioned in here.

JW: That’s for beginners.

He then explained that out of all groups which claim to be Christian, no one else knows about the faithful and discreet slave. He was sure that we’ve read the parable, but we do not recognize the significance of it like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do.

He then addressed my text when I asked how often this sort of thing happens. He explained that since no one knows everything, there need to be adjustments made from time to time.

KW: So they were wrong.

JW: Uh, yeah. Slightly off, yes.

My friend began to tell me about how in the past, there have been expectations about the end of the world. He mentioned 1975 and even 1914. Of course these expectations were blamed on the people who believed them and not on who told them to believe these things. I asked a few clarifying questions to get him to tell me more. He spoke about how no one knows the day or hour, and that the Watchtower (slave) has “suggested” dates in the past, but it was never taught as fact. According to my friend, some Witnesses placed too much emphasis on the dates. He was very purposeful about telling me that no other groups even recognize the slave.

I repeated some things he said to make sure I understood his view and then redirected the conversation back to the faithful and discreet slave. He interrupted and asked me about my view of the slave. I told him that I thought Matthew 24:45-47 was a parable that applied to all Christians. Jesus was just telling His disciples that they need to be faithful with whatever He have given them to do. I referenced Romans chapter 12 and 1st Corinthians 12 where it speaks of spiritual gifts. Those who have the gift of teaching need to teach. Those who have the gift of mercy need to show mercy, etc. The gifts are for the building up of the Church. He understood my view.

Once we got into the magazine, my Witness friend helped clarify some things for me. I read page eight which states, “Finally, we examined why Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation.” He kept referring to the Slave and I kept telling him that there wasn’t one yet because we had not yet entered into the tribulation. We looked at page 22 which looked like a contradiction to me because it states, “Who, then, is the faithful and discreet slave? In keeping with Jesus’ pattern of feeding many through the hands of a few, that slave is made up of a small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence. Throughout the last days, the anointed brothers who make up the faithful slave have served together at headquarters. In recent decades, that slave has been closely identified with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

My question was, how can we talk about the faithful and discreet slave as an existing entity today if it will not even be appointed until the tribulation? According to my elder friend, the answer is found on page 24 which makes a distinction between when Jesus comes in 1914 and when He will arrive in judgment. During the tribulation the Slave will then make a second appointment and put the Slave in charge of His belongings. The whole thing is very confusing and it was a distinction I noticed when I read it for myself, but still have a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around the details. I will have to read the articles again to get a better understanding of exactly what the Watchtower is teaching a truth now.

However, it is not the doctrinal change per se that bothers me. It is the idea that the Watchtower can change “truth” in God’s name and not be held accountable for it. I asked, “If the Slave has to keep changing what they believe, how is that being faithful? If they had to make an adjustment, it just means they were wrong in the first place.”

My friend once again made reference to Proverbs 4:18 which they take to mean that they will correct their understanding once more knowledge becomes available. He then stated, “Better an adjustment at some point, than no adjustment at all.”

KW: But why would there need to be an adjustment in the first place? It seems like you are saying, “Hey, we got it right this time!” But I am looking at why it was wrong to begin with?

JW: Even in Bible times there were adjustments. The disciples thought that Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom right after the resurrection. Back in the 70’s Witnesses were allowed to smoke, but then the Watchtower said we weren’t supposed to defile your flesh. Everyone was given six months to quit smoking.

KW: Or what?

JW: Or they would be disfellowshipped.

KW: So if they don’t stop smoking in six months they are going to be kicked out?

JW: Yes.

KW: Why does this Slave think they have the authority to do that?

JW: It is part of their responsibility.

KW: To tell people they can’t be a part of the community if they don’t stop smoking in six months? That seems a little drastic.

JW: It may seem so, but it is not a healthy habit that should have been allowed I the first place.

KW: Here is the bottom line for me. This Slave. It is unique to your group, yet you are convinced that you need this Slave. Why do I need somebody else to tell me what God wants me to know when I have His Word?

The response he gave was something very similar to how Mormons answer this question. He was basically saying that the Bible was not enough because there are so many people who read it, but come to different conclusions and don’t live by it. We need someone to guide us so we can be unified in belief. Of course everything points back to the Watchtower.

The whole idea reminds me of circular reasoning. I told my Witness friend the story about the first time I ever encountered circular reasoning. I was in a middle school science class and we were being taught about the fossil record. The teacher explained that certain fossils were X amount of years old because of the layers of stratus that they were found in. I asked how we knew how old the stratus was and he said it was because the fossils found in that layer were X amount of years old. I remember the whole class recognizing the problem and rejecting his answer. I am sure my science teacher appreciated my question.

I used this example to show my Witness friend how the Watchtower uses the same form of reasoning. I asked for him to help me understand how the Slave can make the claims that it makes without using circular reasoning.

KW: The Slave says, “We are in authority over you,” but when I question that, the Slave answers, “Because the literature we produce tells you that we are in authority over you.”

JW: Hmm… Uh, no.

KW: Think about this for a second. This whole idea is unique to your group. Nobody else believes it. I’m asking you to look at this from my perspective, from an outsider’s perspective. The reason why no one else believes it is because your literature points to the Bible and says, “We are the faithful and discreet slave.” When we ask, “How do we know that?” They answer, “Because the Bible says that.” In actuality, only the literature says that, but everyone else who reads the Bible does not come to that same conclusion. How do we know that their conclusion is correct? They answer, “Because we are the faithful and discreet slave.”

JW: Ok. We believe it by faith.

KW: So we just have to believe it? What makes that different than any other religion out there who just believes what they are taught without question?

JW: Because their action prove them wrong.

KW:  So your actions prove you are right?

JW: Yes.

KW: But all your actions are defined by the Slave. It is a self fulfilling idea. Again, look at the from an outsiders perspective. We are studying this book (I pointed to the “Teach” book), “What does the Bible Really teach” instead of looking at (I pointed to the Bible), what the Bible really teaches.

JW: What do you mean?

KW: There is a book in-between us and the Bible and it is almost acting as a mediator.

JW: No.

KW: Can I come to the same conclusion about what the Bible actually says without Watchtower literature? Can I believe what you believe without reading Watchtower literature?

Before I get to my friend’s answer, I want to explain why I said some of the things I said. It is extremely important that you get the person you are talking to, to look at things from a different perspective. This puts the two of you on the same side of the problem instead of coming across as an adversary. If you question things alone, it will be very easy for the Witness (or Mormon for that matter) to stop talking to you because you are seen as someone who is asking dangerous questions. But if you can get the person you are witnessing to, to look at things from an outsider’s perspective, your perspective, now you can attempt to solve the problem together instead of being viewed as attacking their religion. I kept repeating that phrase. “Try to look at this from an outsider’s perspective.”

The reason I asked the question if I could believe the same things he believes without his literature is because I want him to see that the Bible isn’t the problem. It is the additional literature that creates the problems. All cults in some way reduce the importance of the Bible. With the Witnesses, the Bible is subject to Watchtower literature. With Mormonism, the Bible is considered improperly translated so there is need for “modern revelation.” Either way, the Bible is not considered sufficient. Because my Witness friend is subject to this kind of thinking, he answered my question, “No.”

KW: Which means that I need the Watchtower literature.

JW: That is the purpose of the faithful and discreet slave.

KW: Again, it is their claim that I need the Slave and how do I believe it? Because the literature they produce says so.

My Witness friend pointed out that we as Christians also have religious leaders who teach and are in authority over us. He wanted to know how that was different. I told him that was a fair question and pointed out that when our leaders teach and speak, we do not have to automatically believe them upon threat of being kicked out.

The Slave is different as in the case with the people who had six months to stop smoking. Christians preachers do not claim authority over us in the same way that the Watchtower does over Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also questioned why this Slave thinks they have authority. I wanted to know the answer from a different source other than their own claims. I want to see it in scripture because it is circular reasoning otherwise.

I then directed the conversation to the quote in the July edition of the Watchtower that bothers me the most. I prefaced the quote by saying that from an outsider’s perspective, the Slave places itself upon a pedestal and I need to strictly obey them or I’m done. I told him that this quote really bothers me and I am not sure if I should have said that or not because my Witness friend interrupted and started throwing up unrelated topics (smoking, blood transfusions, new light, etc.). I had to work hard to get him to look at the quote. Part of that is allowing him to say things that he knows I disagree with. If I follow his “rabbit trails,” we will never discuss the thing that bothers me. I finally got him to look at page 20 of the July 15, 2013 Watchtower. I read;

KW: That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel.—Matt. 4:4; John 17:3. So my relationship with God depends upon whether or not I agree that this Slave is in authority over me. The only reason I have to believe they are in authority over me is because they say they are. Here is the issue that really bothers me. See that reference to Matthew 4:4? Do you know what that verse says?

JW: What does it say?

KW: Let’s look at it. (I read out of the New American Translation) “But He answered and said, ‘It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’” Why did they put that reference there? What are they trying to communicate to me?

JW: It comes from God.

KW: So what the Slave gives me is coming from God?

JW: Uh-huh.

KW: So that is why they kick me out if I don’t believe it.

JW: Yep.

KW: Because they believe what they are giving to me comes from God.

JW: Umm-Hmm.

KW: Did they believe what they previously taught was also from God?

JW: Yep.

KW: But it wasn’t or they never would have had to change it.

JW: Look, the Pope says…

KW: (interrupting) I’m not Catholic. I don’t care what the Pope says.

JW: They are imperfect humans, it’s true.

KW: Let’s go back to the 70’s.  If I am a smoker and you tell me I have six months to quit, would it be wrong of me to conclude that God wants me to quit smoking in six months?

JW: You would be correct.

I told him that this was a huge claim and that if someone is going to make that kind of claim, they need to be open to criticism and open to proving that claim. I explained that I still look at things with a critical eye, even the things I believe. I made reference to some of the verses we talked about the previous week. I want to be like the Bereans from Acts 17:11 and if the Slave is not open to me doing that, then they are not like Paul who commended people for searching the Scriptures and checking out what he said. I continued;

KW: What really bothers me is that if the Slave is saying that I need them to have a relationship with God and that I can’t understand the Bible without them, then they are saying that the Bible is not enough.

JW: Even in the first century, the early Christians had the apostles. What would keep and outsider then from asking the same questions you are asking now?

KW:  The apostles would point to scripture, they wouldn’t point to other literature. They also had the proof of miracles. The apostles were still performing miracles so people had something tangible to see. From my perspective, it seems like the Slave thinks their literature is equivalent to the scripture.

JW: No.

KW: But I have to believe it or I get kicked out. So is the literature equivalent to the Scripture?

JW: No, no.

KW: Then why do I need it to explain the Bible? It comes across like this. “We’re God’s spokesman, you have to believe us, if you don’t, you’ll get kicked out, but we might be wrong.”

JW: (Laughing) No, not quite like that.

KW: That is how it comes across to me.

JW: Those people are imperfect too.

KW: I know because they keep having to change their beliefs!

My Elder friend kept trying to prove that this doctrinal change is not that big of a deal. I pointed out that if it isn’t a big deal, then he shouldn’t get kicked out for not believing it. He said that if you have doubts, you can always pray about it. (Boy, does that sound familiar.) He said he has no doubts that what is taught in the magazine currently is the truth.

KW: So what you believed last week was not the truth.

JW: Yeah.

KW: And that doesn’t bother you?

JW: No.

KW: It would me because I would want to know what would be true next week.

My friend likened trusting the Watchtower to trusting a doctor who is there to care for your health. I showed him the difference because doctors do not give prescriptions in God’s name and then change their minds if there are ill side effects to the medication. He agreed that using doctors was a bad analogy. I told him that if someone were to tell me that God told them to tell me something and it was wrong, then they obviously were not God’s spokesman because the information they had was wrong.

We concluded by my friend talking about the governing body and how they do what they do on very little remuneration and they aren’t in it for the money. He was trying to impress me with the organization and the supposed pure motives of the people who work there. I kindly listened knowing that he felt like he had to save face and salvage this wreck of a conversation. I told him that I would read through the articles again keeping in mind the things he explained and that I would appreciate it if he would read through them keeping in mind the questions I had.

The meeting wasn’t any longer than most of our previous meetings, but it was probably our best conversation to date. I realize this is a longer post than normal, but I wanted to capture as much of the gist of the conversation as possible. Since there is so much here, obviously some of the things discussed may not be in the correct order or spoken in the exact way I have written it here, but I have tried to faithfully convey the conversation we had. This is heavy stuff for my Witness friend to digest. Please keep him and his family in your prayers.

59 thoughts on “Discussing New Light With A Jehovah’s Witness Elder”

  1. “However, it is not the doctrinal change per se that bothers me. It is the idea that the Watchtower can change “truth” in God’s name and not be held accountable for it.”


  2. Keith, the Watchtower’s use of Prov 4:18 to justify their multitudes of doctrinal flip flops
    ever since Jehovah supposedly directed their first prophet Charles Russell to start the
    Organization , is something that you always count on a Jw resorting to. It’s great how
    you patiently reasoned with him about how you are leery in trusting the “slave” / W.T.
    prophet to provide accurate spiritual truth from Jehovah . As you know , the issue
    with smoking was only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what the Watchtower
    has been up to with enforcing Jehovah”s law . Receiving vaccinations in the 1930’s and
    organ transplants in the 60’s and 70’s are a few examples of what were once considered
    violations worthy of being kicked out of the Kingdom and thus face Jehovah’s wrath .

    The precious people who follow the Watchtower slave/prophet need to know that they
    can read and interpret the Bible for themselves , may they dismiss the slave and
    embrace the Bible alone .
    Keep planting those seeds Keith .

  3. That was an awesome conversation you had with him now my question is you said he’s an elder friend does that mean that he is an elder of the congregation or just an old man? What I would give you a suggestion for next time, have a tape recorder that way you can jot down from the tape recorder exactly what is said. talking to Jehovah’s Witnesses about like talking to any religious person. they believe that their leaders are right, Catholics believe the Pope in the College of Cardinals is right, .the Mormons beli eve that their church priest bishops

      1. Oh, okay I was just making sure. The next time you’re studying with him why don’t you bring up the discussion which I’m not telling you what to do by the way, I am just making a suggestion here, ask him to look up 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verse 16. asking who is the Lord that is coming when he replies that it is Jesus Christ, ask him to go down and look at the footnotes of the New World Translation Bible. ask him to look at the symbol next to Lord in verse 16 and have him tell you what name they have contributed to the word Lord as coming with an arc angels voice. then asking what his thoughts are on that. please excuse my spelling I am using voice recognition in order to make out this email. after he has looked at the name they contribute to the Lord in verse 16 ask him how can that be. does that mean that God Himself is Michael the Archangel?

        1. Terry,
          I do things differently than most people do. I’ve talked about the Deity of Christ with him before and he is not yet ready for that conversation. I almost lost him because we got pretty heavy into it.

          It might be a good idea to click on the “A Conversation With a Jehovah’s Witness Elder” tag under this blog post. You will see how I approach things. Also, this article on our web site speaks on what we call, “Student Role Teaching.” It explains what it is and why we chose to witness this way.

  4. Who really is the Faithful Slave?
    The elder was correct. But he did not explain Matt 24:46, “Happy+ is that slave if his master on arriving* finds him doing so.”

    Notice the slave is the slave before Jesus arrives in Judgement. So the slave is in existence right now. But his authority is limited. It is only over providing spiritual food at the correct time. After Jesus arrives and finds the slave performing hid duties as slave correctly, he is appointed over all the masters belongings.

    Kinda like on the job training. He has to do it right. Therefore if he makes a mistake he HAS to correct it quickly or be judged as unworthy. Kinda tough, don’t you think? Therefore a requirement to be part of that slave is humility.

    1. Bob,
      Actually, we did speak on that a bit and one of the articles in the July 15, 2013 WT even mentions it. My post was already longer than I usually write so I just did not add it. He did help clear that part up for me though. I was confused because the way the WT comes up with its doctrine is so goofy.

      This still does not solve my bottom line issue though. The doctrine has changed numerous times from the Christian congregation, to Russell himself, back to the Christian congregation limited to 144,000 and now limited to the Governing Body. Let’s say the Watchtower finally got this doctrine correct this time. In light of all the previous false views taught in Jehovah’s name (pun intended), how can the Slave be considered faithful? If a Witness were to disagree with any of the past views, they would be kicked out of the organization for disagreeing with a false doctrine.

      That’s just not right.

  5. Keith, this was excellent! Changing the subject a little, could you comment on the ‘blood transfusion’ issue? Could a transfusion be regarded as ‘eating’ blood? Thanks again.

    1. Milt,
      The circulatory system and the digestive tract are two completely different things. I’d really rather not get off topic though. Witnesses who are not comfortable with the current topic may jump on a subject they feel more adept at arguing. Staying on topic keeps that from happening.

  6. Great work Keith, the best you can do is to keep on poking holes in the veil of darkness that covers their eyes (an illustration they use). Hopefully one day there will be enough holes and the whole thing will fall apart.

    In reply to your comment, to illustrate it extremely so as to get the point across: say I was a JW and on June 1st 2013 I was reading my bible daily as a good JW should do. I read the bit in Matt about the faithful slave already existing at Jesus’ return and it dawns on me that society is not teaching it exactly right. I tell my wife and happen to mention it to a JW friend when eh comes over for a bit later that night. On Saturday morning May 4th I go witnessing and get teamed up with a young ministerial servant who has the zeal of a convert. We talk between houses and I mention what I read. He questions me a bit about it. Then Sunday 5th of May, 5 before the meeting an elder approaches me and asks if I have a few minutes after the meeting. He comes over 5 minutes after it finishes and invites me in to the library upon entering there is another elder sitting there with his bible in hand. I get questioned about what I believe regarding the faithful and discreet slave. They tell me that I am wrong because the society says such and such. I insist that I cannot be wrong because it is there in black and white in the bible that Jesus returns and the slave is already employed in his work of feeding the sheep and then he is appointed over all His belongings. The elders tell me to pray about it. I get a follow up discussion the following Sunday 12th May and I inform them that I have not changed my mind and that after praying I believe that Jesus appointed the slave as his dispenser in 1914 and then will appoint him over all his belongings at the start of the tribulation. The elder talking to me shakes his head in confusion and disbelief and suggests that I should not go witnessing anymore until further notice. Tuesday the 14th I get a call from my an elder in the congregation requesting that I meet with a few elders at the local hall the following Tuesday night (21st). I turn up there, they insist that I recant what I have been saying about the fds and that I fall in line with what the fds has most recently printed about the fds. I say nothing, a week later (28th) I am asked if I have changed my mind back and I reply no, I am then told that I will have to attend a judicial meeting to be convened asap. On Wednesday the 5th of June I attend the meeting and am disfellowshipped for apostasy. My disfellowshipping is announced at the meeting on Thursday 6th of June.

    My wife and kids are devastated, my wife cries constantly because we wont be going to pass armagedon together and living in the paradise earth, my brother rings me and tells me he never wants to talk to me again unless it is in regard to pressing family business. On Friday the 7th of June, 2 days after my disfellowshipping, the latest study issue of The Watchtower arrives, it has the study articles for July 15th. It states exactly what I have been saying as “new light”. Does this change anything? No, I would still remain disfellowshipped, shunned, by all including my closest friends and family and I would not pass Armageddon and get to live with my wife and children in paradise unless I repented of my apostasy and was reinstated “in the Christian congregation”.

    The above would be same for any of the doctrines that the watchtower society has changed over years. If you state it as doctrine today, you get disfellowshipped, if you state it as doctrine the day you read it in the Watchtower magazine, its ok.

    Now, lets say that at the judicial meeting I recanted and was not disfellowshipped but stated that I was wrong and that it was heresy. Lets say the next day when the “new light” comes out in the magazine that I refuse to change my beliefs to what is the watchtower society’s new understanding and my old one, for whatever reason. I would then be disfellowdhipped for apostasy for not changing my beliefs to the new one. You might say this is ad absurdum, but it is all possible and it is within their protocol.

    Yesterday’s heresy is today’s truth.

    1. The new light about the faithful and discreet slave was introduced at the AGM in October of 2012 though!! His df’ing should be over turned.

  7. can you add this to the bottom of the last paragraph please.

    Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock (1991) p.100-101

    Propriety of Disfellowshipping

    When making decisions or answering questions about judicial reproof, disfellowshipping, disassociation, or reinstatement, elders should be certain that their decisions and answers are based solidly on the Bible and are in harmony with the most recent statements by the Society. (Compare 1 Corinthians 4:6.)

  8. The “not yet existent” slave class is strikingly similar to the self-righteous Pharisees and other Jewish religious leaders (sp. It’s been a long day). They changed the laws of God to suit the mood of the day…not that a jw would acknowledge that.

  9. I dont think you were actually ever talking with a JW. The only time a JW tells someone else that ‘144000 is the faithful slave’ is either a beginner in the faith or someone that rebels against the faith. The fact of the matter is you can say anything you want; who is going to question you? And did you actually read the whole article with the scriptures? the slave class is (as quoted from the magazine): “A small group of anointed brothers who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food during Christ’s presence.” The 144000 however is the complete number of those ruling in Heaven with Christ.
    And one other thing, I did not read your entire blog; remember this: This religion is made up of people that volunteered to join it; What happens when you join a club? You have to abide by the bylaws; so if they were told to stop smoking, you do it; if you don’t like it you leave. Simple.

    1. Rance,
      What reason do you have to think I am lying? I have been meeting with the same guy since the memorial. Oh never mind. I am not going to waste any more time responding to someone who hasn’t even read my whole post.

    2. This is not a social club. The JW’s lure you into their organization, promising you eternal life. Once baptized, you are not allowed to disagree or ask questions, no matter what they say. Obey instructions, whether they make sense from a human standpoint or not.

      A “CLUB?” Stop smoking now, or you are dead to us!

  10. Ask your elder friend about the ellipsis on page 33 of the Bible Teach book. Talk about the purpose of an ellipsis and what the ellipsis is hiding in both the NWT and the additional items in the other Bible versions. Ironic… what does the Bible ‘really’ teach?

      1. RE: Isaiah 9:6,7 Ellipsis. Are you talking about the fact that Jesus is, in his own right a mighty god? Of course he is. But he is not ALMIGHTY as the Bible says Jehovah alone is (Genesis 17:1) That designation only applies to his Father, who is as Jesus says, the one true God (John 17:3)

        1. Bob,
          You are off topic. This thread is about “New Light,” not the Deity of Jesus Christ. If you want to discuss the Deity of Christ in a post where it is appropriate, by all means, do so.

  11. The most interesting part was the anecdote about the science teacher talking about the age rocks.

    You’ve been wrong about that episode your whole life, unfortunately.

    What you have there is NOT an example of circular reasoning, but just a story about a teacher and a student trying respectfully and valiantly to work together, and just failing to communicate.

    Here’s what was really going on.:
    The teacher was talking about the age of rocks. You changed the subject instead to the age of fossils. Those two things ARE NOT the same thing, though they both talk about ages of things. You wrongly assumed they were.

    Over your entire life, you have thought that it was circular reasoning — the illogical use of a fact as evidence of that same fact — but you’ve been wrong. The age of fossil and the age of a rock are TWO DIFFERENT FACTS, even though they are both ages and the fossil is embedded in the rock.

    Think of it this way — Is not the age of animals on a farm and the age of the farm TWO DIFFERENT THINGS?

    If the class had been talking about farms, the teacher would have said that there is this crude, but valid way to estimate the age of the farm, and one way to is look at the age of the animals on the farm. Then you said “how do they know the age of the animals?” And he said “By looking at the farm.”

    That’s not ‘circular logic.’ That’s showing the two-way relationship between two different facts — rocks and fossils embedded in them (and farms, and animals who live on them).

    In the farm example, if the animals on the farm are a year old, one can say factually that the farm is at least a year old. The farm may actually be a century old, but the ‘relative dating’ of the farm to animals found there at least creates a verified fact — at least a year old.

    Then there is your very valid question — “But how do you now how old the animals are?”

    The teacher in this instance would say — “By looking at the animals. There are ways of looking at an animal that will tell you how old it is.”

    The teacher in your story said that, but about fossils. There are ways of looking at the fossils (just like looking at a horse’s teeth) that give you a good estimate of its age, and when it was deposited there.

    In your story, the teacher was teaching a rock-dating method called “relative dating.” This, as you rightly perceived, is a rough way to determine dates — it is not precise.

    But it means looking at the fossils in the rock, determining their type and — THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT — bringing in facts known about that type of fossils DETERMINED FROM OTHER LOCATIONS AND STUDIES.

    That was your SECOND MISTAKE — you assumed that in that hypothetical rock and fossil you were talking about that all the information on the fossil CAME FROM JUST THAT FOSSIL.

    No, as the teacher should have explained, the information is built up from a whole history of observations by many people all over the world.

    So, in conclusion:

    -No actual circular logic — That requires just one fact. In this case there were two – the age of the rock and age of the fossil.
    – You made a mistake in assuming that there was ‘one’ age fact, when there were two.
    – You made a second mistake in assuming that the fossil in question was the only source of information about that fossil when the teacher was talking about a dating method that depends on knowing what others have learned about the same type of fossil in many different places.

    1. Ego,
      No, I think it is you who are mistaken. My middle school science teacher was definitely guilty of circular reasoning.

      You stated, “Here’s what was really going on.:
      The teacher was talking about the age of rocks. You changed the subject instead to the age of fossils. Those two things ARE NOT the same thing, though they both talk about ages of things. You wrongly assumed they were.”

      Here is what was really going on? Really? How do you know exactly what happened in a conversation I had more than 30 years ago? I find that humorous that you think you know what really happened.

      I didn’t change the subject from rocks to fossils. It is as simple as this. The teacher told us that the fossils were X amount of years old. I asked how he knew that. He answered because the layer of stratus in which the fossil was found was between X and Y ages. I asked how we knew the age of the stratus. He answered that the age of the stratus is determined by the age of the fossils found within.

      That is circular reasoning. If you don’t understand that, I can’t help but think it is because you don’t want to.

    1. That is a simple answer jwitness. There needed to be a change because they were WRONG. The Watchtower taught that GOD was responsible for the teaching. If you didn’t believe it, you would be kicked out for apostasy. Here is what you have not considered. How can someone be kicked out of the organization for apostasy if the Watchtower was guilty of teaching false doctrine in the first place?

      1. Keith, I’m praying that Jw’s will be able to step back and think through what
        they have been taught about this issue . In the Awake magazine [ 11-22-1964]
        there was an article about how not everyone who preaches from the Bible can
        be trusted to handle it aright. The Bereans in Acts 17:1-12 are cited :
        ” Yes, the Bereans knew that just the quoting of scriptures did not make Paul’s
        teaching right. They wanted to make sure that it was not just the Word of God
        being used , but that Paul was actually teaching the truth as set forth in that
        Word. It is vital that you follow this same noble example of the Bereans. Why
        so? Because there is the possibility that the one who may speak to you from
        the Bible will twist the scriptures , applying them in such a way as to propagate
        false ideas . ”

        Jw’s need to know that right there in their own magazine is the reason why we
        have dismissed the Watchtower prophet as being not of God , and that they
        should do likewise : propagating false ideas by misusing the Bible . The
        number of doctrinal flip flops by this organization is huge and a very consistent
        pattern from it’s beginning , and as a result the leaders of this organization
        have had time to craft some clever alibi’s to keep sincere Jw’s off guard and
        prevent them from seeing that they are in a false prophet led organization .
        The way the Watchtower leaders have abused Proverbs 4:18 is clear when
        one reviews their preaching track record .

        Jw’s need to know there is a better way . A religious organization is not the
        answer , a person is , and that person is Jesus .

  12. While, over the last 100 years, the Watchtower has updated/changed their doctrine why has Christendom clung to teachings that have direct pagan roots such as the Trinity, Purgatory, Immortality of the soul and others?

    These teachings are not in Holy Scripture.

    It is a credit to the JWs that they have diligently studied the Scriptures and when finding a teaching that is not Biblical, they change to conform to Bible teachings.

    Sure they were wrong initially but coming out of Christendom with it’s myriad of incorrect Bible teachings it takes a while to correct their doctrine.

    Even Christendom’s Biblical scholars have admitted to “Christianising” pagan doctrine and allowing it to become part of their dogma. That can’s be right.

    Why haven’t the major Christian churches followed their lead ?

    1. Again, another easy answer. Christian Churches haven’t changed their doctrine because truth doesn’t need to be changed. You seem to keep forgetting that the only reason the Watchtower changes it doctrine is because… *it was wrong!*

      Please think about this. The Watchtower claims that what they teach comes from God, yet it is changed because they recognized it was WRONG. If you are going to claim to speak for God, you’d better get your information correct the first time or you are guilty of misrepresenting God. He doesn’t like that. (Deuteronomy 18:18-22)

  13. The trinity, immortal soul and purgatory are not Bible teachings. Holding on to them for centuries will not make them true.

    Pagan rites “sanctified” by the church are still pagan rites.

    (2 Corinthians 6:14-16) 14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? . . .

    Christian Churches have to change their incorrect doctrine to come in line with the Bible.

    1. JWitness,
      This thread is not about doctrines per se’. It is about the doctrine of “New Light.” How can the Watchtower claim to speak for God, change it’s doctrine and again claim they are speaking for God? If you are willing to admit that a doctrine can be changed in the future, then you are admitting that it might not be true today. If it is not true today, then at least two things are true. 1) You should not be kicked out of the organization for *not* believing it now and 2) it really isn’t from God. Pick one.

    1. jwitness, I’m not sure you understand the seriousness of this issue . It gets down to
      trust . Since Jesus warned about future false prophets misleading people the
      question is : can we trust the Watchtower prophet claim to be Jehovah’s sole
      channel of communication of His truths to man today ? When you observe the
      scheer number of doctrinal changes since 1879 by the Watchtower organization
      it is apparent that this prophet can’t seem to get it right concerning providing
      accurate teachings about a wide range of doctrines . The number of doctrinal flip
      flops emanating from Brooklyn has been nothing short of MASSIVE . That this
      type of behavior is not acceptable is what Paul was alluding to in Eph 4:14 .
      The Living Bible is not a translation but what it says about this verse describes
      Jw’s precisely :
      ” … forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told
      us something different , or has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the
      truth …”
      You said, ” It is a credit to the Jw’s that they have diligently studied the scriptures
      and when finding a teaching that is not Biblical , they change to conform to Bible
      teachings .”

      Credit ? Really ? Do they really change conform to Bible teachings?”
      Let’s look at a few examples to see if your statement is true :

      Rom 13: 1 , who are the ” superior authorities ” mentioned here ?

      For decades it was taught as Bible truth these were human governments/rulers.
      years later it was taught that this was a false doctrine , and those who held this
      view were in ” Babylonish” captivity ! Then in the 1930’s the Watchtower prophet
      supposedly changed to conform to the Bible’s true interpretation , now it was
      Bible truth that Jehovah and His Son were these superior authorities . But then
      in 1963 , the Watchtower prophet changed again this time back to teaching that
      these superior authorities are human rulers.
      How about the question of : will the men of Sodom be resurrected ?
      Pastor Russell said yes ; but in 1952 the answer was no ; then in 1965 the answer
      was yes ; but then in 1988 the answer was no !

      Prophets today who can’t make up their minds with their ” Bible instruction ” are to
      rejected . The Watchtower [ 11-1 1931 , p 327] declared :
      ” the Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of men , nor is it published
      according to the whims of men. No man’s opinion is expressed in the Watchtower.
      God feeds His own people ….”
      The Watchtower [ 5-15-1976 p298 ] proclaimed that those who claim to represent
      God can’t be vacillating , wishy washy about important teachings because if so
      then others would be wise to not put confidence in their judgements .

      And that’s why I dismiss the Watchtower prophet’s claim to be God’s mouthpiece for
      today . I can’t trust them to be consistent reliable guides in interpreting the
      scriptures . Their track record speaks for itself . Using words like “adjustments”
      to try and divert away from the indictment of being false teachers , won’t convince
      those to take the time to examine this track record .

      May you come to realize that you can open God’s Word and without any
      submission to the Watchtower prophet come to know Jehovah , and that
      this starts with knowing Jesus personally because salvation is not in an
      organization . Please ponder that .
      Take care

      1. “jwitness, I’m not sure you understand the seriousness of this issue . It gets down to trust .

        Not Trust. It gets down to TRUTH.

        Christendom still teaches the Trinity, Purgatory, Immortal soul, Hell fire, NOT Bible teaching and Christendom has admitted these teachings have come from Pagan religion (in their own literature).

        The Watchtower is striving to present the truth from the Bible, not non-christian stories made up by god-defying pagans.

        Christendom had 2 centuries to get their teachings in line with the Bible. They CHOSE to perpetuate the lies from Babylon, Egypt, Assyria and a host of other pagan religions.

        Your beef should be with them for telling lies to you about God.

        1. Jay,
          Stop trying to change the subject. What Christians teach is not the issue. If it is a matter of TRUTH for you as you say it is, then why are you not upset at the fact that you were forced to believe a view about the Faithful and discreet Slave that is consider false today? Face it Jay. You (Jehovah’s Witnesses) believed false doctrine about the FDS for decades. And you did so in God’s name.

  14. Jehovah’s Witnesses came out of main-stream Christian religion starting in the late 1800s. Wanting to get spiritually closer to God and Christ they scoured the King James Bible and found that many so-called “Christian” beliefs were not found in scripture (ie. Trinity, Hell fire, Purgatory, Immortal Soul … )

    Doctrine change is inevitably a part of the learning process hence, doctrinal change (“new light” as it is called).

    Christian churches have hung on to non-Biblical teachings as mentioned above. Just look into any encyclopedia on the above subjects ( Trinity, Hell Fire, etc.) and one will find these teachings in non-christian religions centuries before Christ.

    “New Light” portends “doctrinal change”.

    The Bible provides the truth about our Savior not ancient pagan religions.

    (Proverbs 4:18)  But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.

    As the sun’s light gets brighter from dawn until “the day is firmly established.” Similarly, spiritual light (information and understanding) gets brighter for Jehovah’s Witnesses as time goes on. As we draw much closer to the closing events of this system, our understanding of the outworking of Jehovah’s purposes becomes clearer. Divine prophecies open up to us as God’s holy spirit sheds light upon them, and as they are fulfilled in world events or in the experiences of Jehovah’s people. Thus their ‘path gets lighter and lighter.’

    Any other questions can be answered at wol.jw.org

    My best to you,

    1. Jay,
      I’ve never met a people so proud of their admitted false doctrine as Jehovah’s Witnesses. You keep missing a very important point. You cannot claim that a view is GOD’S VIEW and then correct it. You cannot claim that God has “non-inspired” messages. You cannot claim that something is a “Divine prophecy” if it is wrong. You cannot claim that something is new light if it is not true light.

      This makes a mockery of God and he takes it very seriously (Deuteronomy 18:18-22)

  15. By the way: KW: Here is the bottom line for me. This Slave. It is unique to your group,

    yet you are convinced that you need this Slave. Why do I need somebody

    else to tell me what God wants me to know when I have His Word?

    Answer: The first century Christian recognized the authority of the

    “Slave/Governing body” of the Apostles and Older Men in Jerusalem (See

    scriptures below)

    Today the apostles are long-gone but there are Older Men who have

    dedicated their life to Jehovah God through Christ.

    There has always been structure in the Christian congregation. We

    recognize this “Slave” within the organisation today as scripturally


    If you don’t, that’s OK with us.

    The scriptures have set the precedent:

    The “apostles and the older men”

    (Acts 15:22, 23) . . .Then the apostles and the older men together with the

    whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them . . . 

    and by their hand they wrote:. . .(Acts 15:28-30) . . .For the holy spirit and

    we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these

    necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and

    from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU

    carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good

    health to YOU!” 30 Accordingly, when these men were let go, they went

    down to Antioch, and they gathered the multitude together and handed

    them the letter.

    (Acts 15:1, 2) . . .And certain men came down from Ju·de′a and began to

    teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom

    of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little

    dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar′na·bas with them, they arranged

    for Paul and Bar′na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles

    and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.

    (Acts 16:4, 5) . . .Now as they traveled on through the cities they would

    deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided

    upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. 5 Therefore,

    indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to

    increase in number from day to day.

    1. Jay,
      Circular reasoning. The Watchtower tells you that the first century Christians had an authority called the “Governing Body,” the Faithful and Discreet Slave. How can we trust the word of the Watchtower? Because it is led by the Governing body, which is the Faithful and discreet Slave.

      Is that the best argument you have?

  16. Any FALSE doctrines Jehovah’s Witness started out with (they did come out of Christendom) when removing themselves from nominal Christendom have taken time and serious Bible study to remove from the organization.

    The False teachings Christendom has perpetuated in their churches haven’t changed for almost 2 millennium. (Trinity, Immortal soul, Hell fire, Purgatory, etc…)

    Obviously they don’t wish to teach pure Bible Truth but only hang on to pagan doctrine.

    We wish to please God not his Adversary. We get rid of false doctrine when it has been found through Bible study. This takes time. Hence, “New Light” from time to time.

    I would suggest you continue your discussions with your Witness friend. It was a pleasure corresponding with you.

    Biblical answers can be found at wol.jw.org.


    1. Jay stated, “Any FALSE doctrines Jehovah’s Witness started out with (they did come out of Christendom) when removing themselves from nominal Christendom have taken time and serious Bible study to remove from the organization.”

      Take some time? I guess so. It took the Faithful and Discreet Slave 94 years to teach the truth about the Faithful and Discreet Slave. You’ve got to watch my video and see the history of the doctrine. The Watchtower is lying about what they taught in the past. All you have to do is read the old Watchtower literature to see what they taught back then.

      It sounds like you are thinking about not commenting any more. That would be a shame. If you decide to go, I pray that the Holy Spirit really bugs you about following a false prophet. You can’t claim to teach something in “God’s name” all the while expected that it could be corrected in the future. Either the Watchtower is led by God in which case there would be no corrections, or it is led by men, in which case there are constant corrections.

  17. You got me. “Its threefold purpose is to REACH Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons for Christ, to TEACH Christians the differences between these two cults and Biblical Christianity, and to WARN the community about the dangers of these groups.”

    I should have read your “About us” before responding within your blog. I see it was set up to “bait” Witnesses into a conversation. You did a good job.

    “Witness baiting” blogs abound on the net and I can usually spot them right off. I don’t know what ax you have to grind with the Witnesses but I’m sorry you feel the way you do.

    Personally I wish you a good life with your wife. Keep reading the scriptures.


    1. I got you? Set up? Bait? What in the world are you talking about?

      I am not trying to hide who I am and what I do here. The blog plainly states “The Edge is the official blog of Evidence Ministries , a missionary outreach to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.” If you didn’t catch that, I’m sorry, but don’t accuse me of trying to bait you into a conversation when I have been upfront from the beginning.

      I don’t have an axe to grind any more than you have one to grind when you go door to door. God has called me to reach two people groups; Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. God has given me an extraordinary love for those people. It is that simple. I reach out because I care.

      Thanks for your nice wishes, but I think there is something else going on here. I think you are starting to understand that I have reason for what I believe. I think perhaps you are starting to see some problems with the Watchtower and you are uncomfortable with that.

      Regardless of whether or not you stay, I pray that God opens your eyes to the problems of the Watchtower. I pray that you come to understand exactly who Jesus is and what He has done for you.


  18. First and foremost, thanks to God through Holy Spirit which leads men into discussions of His Written Word. Thanks to Keith for opening this article and sharing his experiences. Thanks to all participants of God.

    Dear Jay and all Jehovah’s Witnesses,

    You excommunicated me from your congregation, a God-Fearing, humble, and honest man. I was trained in your teachings several years ago when I was brought up on the old light, which in God’s eyes, is only darkness that originates with Satan. I continue to hold faith in the belief that many of you dear ones still remain to see Satan as the Father of the lie. This is so important because God and Christ do not have association with anyone who teaches lies. The one thing that God cannot do, as you know, is Lie. It is never easy to see where lies are coming from when you are standing right in the midst of it. The window view looking in certainly depicts a very contrasting image of what you have been trained to believe all these years, looking out. It’s true, the old saying, “Grass is truly greener on the other side.” My heart so eagerly holds out to you. Your life is so precious to me. Though you cannot refer to me as a brother anymore, hear the whisper beneath my breath, I will always love you, even if you are taught to hate me, as you are taught to hate what is bad. For years, you all made me feel just this way, bad, worthless, and accountable before God as death awaited me. For years I was so depressed and nearly ended my life. You shunned me as we passed by on the streets. I smiled and waved with empty returns. You know yourself through many articles published through the older men up there at the yellow house, you were only doing what you were directed to do. It’s okay, I forgive you. Through the love and mercy of Christ, I am only able to do this. Not through a body of men who tell me to when the time is right for them. I want you to know that though it is so hard for you to believe this right now, I pray for you, because the Truth Of God and His Light is not with you. God is not a person that his way of Truth in his divine will and purpose for men should change, or get brighter, then dimmer, then brighter and brighter. Please, do not mock God. God is Truth. The Almighty is always a Bright Light, and when he wants to, he will reveal it without any errors. Yahweh is not a person like you or I, that He makes many mistakes over and over again through men whom he has chosen. How can you possibly see The Almighty God this way? If He sees fit to deliver a humble man a prophetic word, please rest assured and find comfort in the fact that He will indeed do so, and with no idiosyncrasy whatsoever. Fine and pure is how God delivers, not one grain is missing. The greater majority of you are being led away by means of Satan’s crafty acts due to uninspired teachings from a supposed God, and through a so-called person you call Christ, it in turn is given to men who have continuously claimed to have direct inspiration from God and Christ through a channel called The Faithful & Discreet Slave Class, overflowing cups of repeated lies, faulty reasoning, and false prophecies. Because of this ungodly pattern that has started in the 1800’s with Charles Taze Russell, several from within the Organization, whom once walked in these false teachings, men, women, and children who at one time dedicated their life to God through this same channel, at one time or another, have left the Organization.Some were ready to walk away for years and denounced the beliefs and teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the nature of a written letter. Several were excommunicated for having originating their own thoughts and ideas, real light possibly, and many had simple questions in their relationship with God by reasoning from the scriptures in comparison to the latest issues of the Watchtower magazines; reading them daily and causing several to draw upon themselves a point of self-reflection and deep dedication to the Almighty, His Divine Will, and not mans. Due to sound reasonable arguments based on solid scriptural teachings that did not meet up agreeably with the current teachings of the Watchtower Society, a heart striking sword of judgement to the questioner arrived at his or her throat from members within this group of people testifying to be God’s Witnesses. A judgement from men no less! A shunning like that of a man who had actually denied God himself and his faith in God itself! So harsh and so prideful of false reasoning, filled with anger and wrath. To you, we became known as apostates, the Anti-Christ, teachers and followers of Satan. That which originates with Satan is what you had me dressed in. You would think in your hearts about me, too bad for you, follower of darkness! You were so far from the Truth. In God’s Love I can honestly say to you, The Light can never be within you. Your teachings and unkind acts are so far away from Him. Holy Scripture is indeed inspired of God, a text that the WTS uses frequently. Remember, scripture also says that false prophecy, which are teachings that are untrue and not befitting to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, ‘Do not originate with God, but with men.’ Who really is the Anti-Christ? No matter what color you clothe your New World Translation, Holy Scripture testifies again and again, that true prophets of God are divinely inspired men. Men who are borne along by means of God’s Holy Spirit, the Spirit Of Truth, that is, “The Light of God’s Word, The Word Of God.” Are we to believe in this New Light and really lean on the idea that God and his Word is a new truth, based on the history of lies and false prophecies and repeated changes in doctrine throughout the years? Light and darkness, Christ and Belial, have no common ground here. We should only assume that Satan, not God, has inspired you with false prophecy through this channel for 94 years, according to your New Light date changes. Think for a moment, why in your right mind would you ever believe God to choose a people for his name only to launch forth lies about His Will. Do you honestly believe this to bid well within the community? Seriously, how exactly does God, in all of His Truth and Innocence, bring Himself so low to allow Himself to teach these lies through a people for his name. You cannot make Him become something He is not just to accommodate your teachings directed from a group of people who claim to represent Him and disgustingly take it upon themselves to claim the name, Faithful & Discreet Slave. So really, Who really is this slave? I asked it, have you? I mean REALLY asked it? On bended knee to God, I asked, begging, pleading with pouring of spirit and tears, I demanded. With a new breath, it dawned on me, I am already a man of God. I believe Christ is my Savior and that he personally died for my sins. I dedicated my life to God. I live my life for God, sinful in all my nature. I do not deserve to be alive but under the mercy and undeserved kindness of God, I am. With all my questions, I gave it all to Him and Him alone. It is only mans naturally born inclination to have free will and question the existence of another man, or a number of men for this matter, whatever and whomever they claim to be. Especially if they make the claim that my life and future lies in their hands through its teachings provided through the Watchtower. If I accept it, I will live. If not, sadly I will die. These statements are what keep the majority detained in spiritual darkness for years. It is so sad. You fail to use your own rights. For example, as a citizen of this country, you have the right and free will to question Obama and the actions of our own US Government. Again, “who really is the Faithful & Discreet Slave?” That is an extremely thought provoking question we all should ask ourselves. Is Jesus really referring to a group of leaders among imperfect men? The WTS has turned off the New Light and has taken the Greek word Eklesia (Ecclessia) out of its original context. Sorry for misspelling, I am not a Greek or Hebrew Scholar nor claim to be. That field is for those who have actually studied the original writings and languages in its entirety. Moving on …. So, in direct opposition to Gods own command to not twist his word, to take away, or add to the Holy writings, the WTS has created its own doctrinal interpretation of this word to teach that this word must be used in reference to a group of people united in the same thought, to be led by men in authority, and preached about in Church, an Assembly, or congregation if you will, in respect to adherence to the ones watching over their souls, their leaders, sinful unruly men who have claimed to be inspired of God, the Faithful Slave. It is further supported through the many pages of the Watchtower magazines that the word greatly signifies to congregate together, to give witness about God together, as a group united and glorified in God. Wake up, in truth, the early Christians had the Real Light. Ekklesia was a simple act of one man, one soul, to give loyalty and obedience to his own King, Christ above. There was never a command to establish a church system of any kind. Jesus himself nor the apostle Paul and other men in early Christian times never gave thought to the idea of building a church for people to gather together in and take up collections publicly or privately. Now to a man who really appreciates the beauty of God-Given free will, the ability to examine and question openly about scripture in reverence to God and not man-made Church systems, to be able to preach into the community about God and Christ based upon the original writings, then this is New Light, Ecclesia. The fear of God is what moved many faithful Bible examples of times past to question and fight, through faith in God. If it meant death by the hands of Caesar to deny his Kingship and claim Christ Jesus as Lord and King, this was true Ecclesia. It is the same faith that Jesus displayed while on earth. The same Ecclessia that led Jesus before earthly kings and courts and unto his death by means of his preaching to the community. Let us suppose that the Watch Tower Society were on trial through the Supreme Court for having claimed to have “New Light” from God and for claiming to be a representative of The Almighty God Yahweh or Jehovah if you will? Would all of the evidence presented to the Judge and bodies of the court hold up under careful investigation? Would the Court honor these ‘New Light” changes of repetitiveness with so much valid proof of its falsity throughout history and the evidence that many people suffered for no reason at all due to the old light? Those poor people suffered and died based upon old light, false teachings. Is that okay with your Jehovah that several died based on teachings of old light? Did this light really originate with God? Let’s say that each JW member who put their families and careers in jeopardy and suffered financial hardships based on these old light teachings that came from imperfect men were present in the courtroom? Would they be rectified in any way? Has the WTS made any attempts to reconcile the wrongs committed against these men for the faith they swore unto the Faithful Slave and its body? The Faithful Slave, Inspired of the One True God? Really? Suddenly, you are judged by the Supreme Court to be a strange and awkward people who never had ‘The Light.’ A question you should ask your elders, Why is it okay for the Brooklyn men up in the yellow house to cause a great division through its teachings throughout the years, but whenever we question a doctrinal teaching from these older men, we are frowned upon and judged? Why is that? And really, if God and Christ are truly leading this Organization with New Light, why so many changes through the ‘circulatory system and digestive tract?’ Is Light really Darkness? Never may that be. Let God be found True, though every man be found a liar.

  19. This is not a reply to the foregoing.

    I was just visited by a couple JW men. We talked for a while re their eschatology, e.g., ‘1914’ and what’s next on the Divine Agenda (in their view). 1 Corinthians 15:28 was brought up — a troublesome passage for me: ‘…then shall the Son also himself be subject unto [Jehovah] ….”

    How do you understand this verse that seems to project further into the ages to come than any other?


    1. I hesitate to discuss prophecy with JW’s, since they are so wrong. Try to get them to prove 1914, which is a calculation made by CT Russell, based on an inaccurate date of 607.

      I am looking at the Greek translation of the NWT, and Jehovah’s name is not here, BTW. We are subject to Christ, and the son is subject to the Father. Christ is our mediator, from the way I understand it.

  20. This comment is going to be a little scattered, but I have had several experiences with JW’s, as this new light has been revealed.

    I saw the Watchtower of July 15 online, and asked my JW friend to bring me a copy. She brought it over, and asked why it was so interesting to me. I said, “I see they are changing things again, and I think you are being deceived.” Her response shocked me. “Isn’t it EXCITING!!? I love it when new light is revealed!!” I was stunned. She used an anecdote about a sailor, adjusting his sails to stay on course. It reminded me of the scripture that warns you against being tossed around by every breeze that blows, but I do not have extensive Bible knowledge, and am actually still recovering from the false JW teachings myself. As I learn more about the true nature of Christ, I hope to be able to share the gospel more successfully.

    I have family members, who were baptized into the JW’s within the last 5 years. I honestly thought that this “new light” would wake them up from their sleep. The sands are shifting, and they are expected to adjust themselves.

    I had an interesting conversation with my JW brother in law. I asked him what he thought of the article in the July 15 magazine. He made the curious statement, “I wish they didn’t spend so much time discussing what we ‘used to’ believe, and get on with explaining what we believe now.” Wow. Really? I encouraged he and my sister to examine the scriptures, and watch out for contradictions between the Watchtower and the Bible. (of course, they always do that!)

    A few seeds were planted that day, and I’m hoping someday they will wake up. I continue to pray for JW’s every day. My parents are also ensnared in this organization. The new light is particularly disturbing to me, especially as it leads up to the November 15 Watchtower, in which they warn people that they will be expected to obey inhumane instructions, and elders are told to brace themselves and to keep people united. “Be confident Jehovah will deliver us.”

    My husband and I attended and recorded the Watchtower discourse lessons on September 8 and 15. Key phrases were used throughout the discussion. “Jehovah will unite us.” “We need to stick together on this.” “Be certain Jehovah will deliver us.” I have concerns for the physical safety of the JW’s in 2014.

    1. Wow. Being deceived is exciting? That is a new one on me.

      The analogy your friend used is from a Watchtower article titled, “The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter.” It is found in the December 1, 1981 on page 26-31. It talks about “tacking into the wind.” Why would God’s path need to be corrected?

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