Keith and David talking about Mormonism, how to know truth and the gospel.
Our annual mission trip to Manti, Utah is coming soon. We begin training and preparing our Manti Mission Team Thursday, May 2nd. Training is also open to Christians who want to learn more about Mormonism and how to witness to them. You do not have to go on the mission trip in order to take advantage of this training. We will conduct seven weekly training sessions starting on Thursday, May 2 and will go through Thursday, June 13. The meetings we be at Community Bible Church and alternating between rooms P-7A (portable) and room 134 from 6:45 to 8:30 PM. Because we are meeting in two different rooms, please double check which location we will be meeting at each week. The portables are behind the building. Childcare is available with advance notice.
Our class schedule is as follows.
May 2, Room C- 134 – Introductions and The Mormon Puzzle Video.
May 9, Portable 7A – The Mormon World View of Exaltation.
May 16, Room C- 134 Portable 7A- Mormonism\’s Impossible Gospel Part 1.
May 23, Portable 7A – Mormonism\’s Impossible Gospel Part 2.
May 30, To be determined- Explaining the Gospel to Mormons.
June 6, Room C-134- God Is Not A Man.
June 13, Portable 7A- Role-playing to apply what you have learned.
Here is an example of Keith putting what you will learn into practice. David has been a Mormon for more than 30 years and gives the most common objections to our witnessing technique. Keith spoke with David for more than an hour and a half. This video show about 30 minutes of it. If you don’t have the time to watch the whole thing, then at least watch the first five minutes of it. It is a great example of how Christians and Mormons can talk about serious things without arguing. We even had a little fun in the process.
Our training sessions are always fun and informative. You will learn more about Mormonism than you ever thought you could know. You will gain a heart for the Mormon people and will be equipped to reach out in love to those who are lost. Training materials will be available for purchase. We look forward to seeing you there. Feel free to bring a friend!
Lastly, we view this training series as similar to how a Mormon would view their Missionary Training Center. For that reason it will not be conducive for TBM’s (True Believing Mormons) to attend these sessions. Thank you for your understanding.
Keith, I know God will bless your efforts amongst the Mormon people there in Manti.
These precious people need to hear the truth about Jesus .May there be many
christians go and share . 1 Pt 3:15
I live in so cal and would like to take advantage of your training and
I’m praying about joining your mission trip.
Is there an application? I’d like more info.
Thank you
Rosa
Rosa,
Our training is done locally. We have thought about recording our training sessions, but that it too much work for me at this point. You can always come to Manti on your own and take advantage of the training offered every morning at Ephraim Church of the Bible.
Rosa, we live in So Cal and are going to have tranings as well for this trip. Where do you live?
Hi Victoria,
Somehow I missed your comment. I live in Santa Ana, Orange County
Victoria,
I live in Orange County and would love to connect with you
If possible.
Rosa, we have trainings every Saturday of May and some in June. I have a flyer with speakers dates, hours, and topics as well as location. I would like to send this flyer to you so you can see and can come and meet with us! It would be great! We have speakers from OC 🙂 if you want this flyer, please send me a message to this email address mantimissiontrip@gmail.com
and I will contact you and send you info!
Thanks. I did not realize you were in Texas!
I’ve never been to Manti, but I was in Palmyra with Christian Resarch and Counsel
a few years ago before John Farkas past away.
If I come, could I connect with your group? Where do your stay etc.
Keith,
I am not one of the people who do well “thinking on my feet” in a situation like the one you show in your video.
With time to think and pray about what you presented, it is very clear that you only take a part of our teachings and do not address the parts that do not go along with your way of thinking.
Example, you used D & C 1:31 and other scriptures like it to show that we are working for perfection and have not achieved it.
Yet you leave out something that God teaches in the Book of Mormon that you have said is wrong. Remember all the times you teach that it is untrue that Jesus will finish the job for us after all we can do.
Because you later testified about what you believe Jesus did for you in your being saved, I think it is unfair for you to leave out that God shows that Jesus has already done the same thing according to His Teachings in the Book of Mormon. The detail in what God taught through Nephi adds more detail about how “being saved” works, and in no way changes it, it only changes the definitions man has added to what God taught in the Bible.
When you criticize our teachings and beliefs about why we are responsible for what we do you really should remember that our “works” determine our job in heaven, and not if we will get to heaven.
In the Lord,
fred
(Doctrine and Covenants 1:31–33)
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;
32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Fred,
If you have watched my other videos, you might take notice that I do not talk about going to heaven with Mormons. I specifically teach Christians to avoid this type of language because it doesn’t get to the heart of the matter. I talk about living in heavenly father’s presence or in other words, of being forgiven. The official Mormon teaching manuals are clear. One is not forgiven unless they have repented.
You said, “Yet you leave out something that God teaches in the Book of Mormon that you have said is wrong. Remember all the times you teach that it is untrue that Jesus will finish the job for us after all we can do.”
I’m not following you here. Can you try to explain that again, please?
Keith,
While studying your teachings so I could insure I was using you definition to any words I used I ran across you teaching that the two Jehovah’s Witnesses in the airport and how they acted just like you did with the Mormon in this video. I began to get angry.
YOU TEACH WITHOUT ANY IDEA THAT YOU CAN BE WRONG AND YOU HAVE CLOSED YOU SELF TO LEARNING.
As I reviewed again the rest of your trainings and beliefs, I had anger added on anger.
I normally do not respond when I am angry because of the way I desire to pound on something gets me in trouble.
Because I came across this statement you said, I feel the need to pound some truth into your head.
I have been careful about putting links to other web sites in your’s, but not this time.
You said, “Questioning their dearly held beliefs is not encouraged by their leaders . . .”
That is very untrue.
We are taught that part of our responsibilities to question and find out for ourselves.
Here are a two:
Brigham Young made the following statements:
Ladies and gentlemen, I exhort you to think for yourselves, and read your Bibles for yourselves, get the Holy Spirit for yourselves, and pray for yourselves.
Dallin H. Oaks
But when it comes to learning and knowing the truth of the gospel—our personal testimonies—we each have a direct relationship with God, our Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, through the powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. This is what our critics fail to understand. It puzzles them that we can be united in following our leaders and yet independent in knowing for ourselves.
Are you willing to do as you say we must and question your beliefs, or are you one of the people you talk about?
If you want the truth and not the stuff, the outsiders want you to think about us, start here
Mormonism and church leadership/The thinking has been done
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_leadership/The_thinking_has_been_done
and here
Mormonism and church leadership/Authoritarianism/Quotes
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_leadership/Authoritarianism/Quotes
May you desire to learn and know these truths.
FRED
That isn’t true at all Fred. I have been corrected by both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. I’m actually happy when that happens because it gives me a more accurate view of what each system teaches.
If you are angry, then you can always leave. If this blog causes you to want to pound on something then I’d hate for you to end up in jail.
As for your links to FAIR, that organization is not officially affiliated with the Mormon Church and has no authority to speak for it. Please don’t include links to sources which are not official.
(. . . I’d hate for you to end up in jail.)
Thanks for worrying, but I have not been in jail since joining the Church, except for the time I set off the alarm on a classified building while giving the password over the phone. The sky cops jacked me up and tossed me behind bars until my commander came down and vouched for me.
(As for your links to FAIR, that organization is not officially affiliated with the Mormon Church and has no authority to speak for it.)
I used the Fair links because it was a fast way to show you where you can find the links to a list of things said by those in authority to speak for the Church is listed.
The last part of that statement leads me to another question about you.
I have look over your training and I see that you have many degrees in Bible study from institutions that are run by Bible scholars. Other than that,
just where do you get your authority to speak for God and Jesus?
Since you say in your statement of faith, “We deny the authority of any other writings on spiritual matters. They are, at best, man’s opinions and, at worst, false doctrine worthy of refutation.”
Just whom do you trust as a trusted Christian authority when you say that all their teachings are of men?
Fred
Ps. Would you be willing to give up your life’s work and start over in a new job if you came to learn that Heavenly Father speaks to us today through His Prophets at the head of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true?
Fred,
That’s pretty funny about your jail time. Man, the things we learn about each other on this blog. 😉
Nah, keep FAIR out of it. If you have some quotes from general authorities speaking in conference or Church manuals, you are free to post those. Too many Mormons complain about Christian apologists using sources that are “Not official.” Forgive me for holding you to the same standard.
I don’t know where you got your information, but I do not have “many degrees.” I only have a Bachelors degree in Biblical Science, I thought about attending seminary, but my profs talked me out of it. They asked, “Why do you need a degree to do what you are already doing?” Good point. I’m just too busy in the ministry to pursue a graduate degree.
As for your other questions, they really are off topic. I will answer the last one though. If I found out that what I believe about Mormonism is false and that what you believe about it is true, then I would not hesitate to start over. I am not committed to this ministry. I am committed to God regardless of where that takes me. I would ask that you answer for yourself if you would do the same thing if you found out that what I say about Jesus is true.
(I don’t know where you got your information, but I do not have “many degrees.” I only have a Bachelors degree in Biblical Science, I thought about attending seminary, but my profs talked me out of it.)
I got this from your “about us” at the top of your blog.
“Keith attended Emmaus Bible College from 1989-1992 and graduated with a three-year Associate of Arts in Biblical Studies. He has since completed his Bachelor of Science in Biblical Studies.”
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(As for your other questions, they really are off topic)
I like to know why you say I am wrong, and I would like to have more than a generic “join a Bible based church” when I ask what should I do after leaving this Church.
After taking out your “why I am not a Mormon or a Jehovah’s Witnesses” in your Doctrinal Statement For Evidence Ministries, there is very little to tell us what you are and what we should do. http://www.evidenceministries.org/about-us/doctrinal-statement/
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Also from your “about us”.
(They both started attending solid churches and were immediately discipled.)
I just want to know what you consider a “solid church”. Who are thay?
fred
Fred,
My Bachelors degree was just the fulfillment of my associates degree. I made a distinction because I attend Emmaus for three years and had no desire complete by Bachelors. A number of years later our board of directors wanted me to finish because I was so close anyway. I did the rest through correspondence courses and a local University here in San Antonio. Even if you wanted to consider both degrees, it still doesn’t equate to “many” degrees.
Seriously, Fred. Your questions have nothing to do with the topic. I will not approve any more of your off topic comments. I have indulged your curiosity about me, but please don’t take advantage of it.
Topic. Get Mormons to leave their Church.
What. Next?????????
No. The topic is “Learn how to get Mormons to see their need for Jesus Christ.” We see the role of Jesus much differently than Mormons do. For instance, if you were to say that Jesus is your Savior, what would you mean by that?
(We see the role of Jesus much differently than Mormons do. For instance, if you were to say that Jesus is your Savior, what would you mean by that?)
Better question Keith, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
In my early years, I practiced the same religion as my parents and grandparents. As I got older, I found that my friends, who were just as God fearing, believed different things about how God wants us to be.
I remember reading a joke in the Guide Post about the differences in religions and the punch line was “we dip them and they drip them”. It started me thinking about why there are so many different religions. It hit me one night at evening service while singing “God of Our Fathers” that it was not God I was questioning; it was the many different teachings of the fathers that I was questioning. Which father got it right? (The song I refer to is here. http://songsandhymns.org/hymns/lyrics/god-of-our-fathers)
The reason I go into this personal history is that I have visited and studied with many different denominations and groups. When I read Joseph Smith’s history, I could understand how he felt with many churches fighting over converts.
(Pearl of Great Price | Joseph Smith—History 1:6)
6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng
I found two basic types of ministries, those who tell me I should believe as they do and those who just want to keep me from being some targeted group, like your ministry.
You say you have a different understanding about how Jesus is our Savior, yet it is off subject for me to ask you to teach why you are correct. It is even off subject to get you to tell me which of the nonMormon Christian ideas of Jesus you follow.
I keep looking at anti ministries like yours because it is part of my following my Church’s teaching and learning for myself if my testimony is true. If this is the wrong Church, someone like you might have the answer.
fred
Ps. I once watch anti-Mormons fight over which group was the right group for a new exMormon to join. They could agree that the Mormon should not be a Mormon, but they could not agree on which group was the right group for him to join.
fred
Fred,
Thanks for the insight into your personal history. Since I asked you first, you should answer first. What do you mean by claiming that Jesus is your Savior? How did He save you and from what did He save you?
On a side note, historically speaking, the revival that Smith refers to in his history was a JOINT revival between the Baptists, Methodists and Presbyterians. In other words, they were working TOGETHER.
Regarding the focus of our ministry. We do both. I believe you should believe the same fundamentals of Christianity that I do AND I don’t think that the LDS Church is a valid form of Christianity. It may seem like I only say that you shouldn’t be LDS or a Witness because most of what I have to do is prove the need for something else. What I believe will not make sense to you unless I first contrast it with error. This isn’t due to my lack of ability to articulate my beliefs, rather it is because Mormons tend to have a completely different mindset. We have a similar vocabulary, but a completely different dictionary. If I tell you what I believe, you will probably hear what you believe.
That is why our conversation will make more sense to you in the long run if you answer my questions and allow me to clarify things as we go along in our discussion. Trust me, I do want to answer your questions and give you the reason for the hope I have within me. I just want to make sure it keeps in line with the thread topic so it makes sense to those who are not directly involved in the conversation.
So, how about it? What do you mean by claiming that Jesus is your Savior? How did He save you and from what did He save you?
(On a side note, historically speaking, the revival that Smith refers to in his history was a JOINT revival between the Baptists, Methodists and Presbyterians. In other words, they were working TOGETHER.)
Keith,
Do you believe any of these denominations is a true teacher for God?
fred
Nope, Fred. I’m not going to bite. What do you mean by claiming that Jesus is your Savior? How did He save you and from what did He save you?
(Since I asked you first, you should answer first. What do you mean by claiming that Jesus is your Savior?)
(If I tell you what I believe, you will probably hear what you believe.)
Keith,
You say you know my “language”.
I do not understand why you cannot teach your gospel without having something of mine to put down.
Speak my “language” and start from the beginning.
fred
Fred, I am giving you an opportunity to get some of your questions answered and you are not taking it. I am not looking to put down your beliefs. What I have to say will be much more understandable if you just answer the questions.
Think of it this way. If we are speaking different languages, then we have to be patient with each other because some words just do not translate word for word. Especially if what I have to say does not translate into your world view. You will continue to misunderstand because we haven’t taken the time to define our terms. I am asking you to define “savior,” so that I can show you the differences.
I am not looking to prove you wrong here. I just want to show you the differences. Again, what do you mean by claiming that Jesus is your Savior? How did He save you and from what did He save you?
(Nope, Fred. I’m not going to bite.)
Thank you
Golly Fred , Keith asked a simple question . If you did’nt wish to answer it why not just
say so in the beginning ? I’m thinkin you may have way too much time on your hands so
you just “make conversation” etc. I thank God that there are christians like Keith who
love Mormons enough to travel to Manti to share Jesus with them . This can be done
in love —-1 Peter 3:15 .
(Golly Fred , Keith asked a simple question .)
No Mike, Keith did not just ask a simple question.
Missionaries are salesmen for their faith and Keith is the head salesman at this web site. He wants only “official” LDS information for a statement that shows he is teaching a mistake, but so far, he will not state what he considers is official for his faith, other than in his doctrinal statement, to backup what he teaches is a mistake in my faith.
His doctrinal statement says he only relies on the Bible and what he thinks it means. Without any other input, I see that as him saying that he is his own authority and he needs no other.
I am only asking him, as the salesman for his mission, to tell me about the light in his eye, not to show me what he thinks is the beam in my eye.
Nevertheless, all I get is that he wants to talk about what he thinks is a beam in my eye.
His ministry states, “Its threefold purpose is to REACH Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons for Christ, to TEACH Christians the differences between these two cults and Biblical Christianity, and to WARN the community about the dangers of these groups.”
I guess I should not expect anything more from a self-proclaimed “beam in your eye” ministry.
fred
Fred,
Continued comments like this will not be tolerated. We are not a “beam in your eye” kind of ministry. Stop the personal attacks and stick with the issue.
I have already explained that I am not looking to prove you wrong. I just want to show the differences in our definitions. I am doing the courteous thing in having you define what it means when you say that Jesus is your Savior. Honestly, I have never had a Mormon balk at that question the way you are doing so.
You continued refusal to answer a simple question is evidence for me that you are not as open to discussion as you claim to be. Either answer the question or just tell me you are not willing to talk. Either way, the game stops now. You are becoming unreasonable and I don’t deal with unreasonable people.
For the last time, would you just please answer the questions? What do you mean by claiming that Jesus is your Savior? How did He save you and from what did He save you?
(You continued refusal to answer a simple question is evidence for me that you are not as open to discussion as you claim to be. Either answer the question or just tell me you are not willing to talk. Either way, the game stops now. You are becoming unreasonable and I don’t deal with unreasonable people.)
Kieth,
I am sorry I do not play your game your way, I have only tried to get you to discuss and state your beliefs, yet you claim I am the one not answering questions. There is a whole string of questions I have asked for clarification to what you, or someone else, has said that you have chosen not to answer. I see that as you being the unreasonable party.
You are the missionary here; it is your responsibility to teach what you believe, not mine to teach you. In addition, you claim to already know what I believe, so you have no need to ask me.
The only teaching method I have seen you use is to ask a question of your target and then you work off the answer, creating a feeling that your knowledge is greater than your targets testimony. It works on some. Not on me.
I am not about to let you control my feelings, I want proof about why you think you really know what you are talking about and why you think you speak for God.
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(For the last time, would you just please answer the questions?)
Not until you start answering my questions.
It is your responsibility to answer my questions, and not try to control me by bypassing my questions by asking me a diverting question, or calling me unreasonable. You cannot make me feel bad about myself because I will not let you divert me from wanting the answers you have not chosen to answer.
fred
Fred,
I am sorry to see you continue in this direction. When I said I am not playing games, I meant that in more than one way. When I said it was your last chance, I wasn’t kidding. I will no longer approve any of your comments until you answer the questions I asked. I gave you an opportunity to get your questions answered, but to do so I needed you to define ONE term. You repeatedly refused to do so.
This is my blog and my rules. If you cannot abide by the rules here, then perhaps it is time you found another blog to frequent. The choice is yours. I hope you just answer the questions.
Wow, Fred, Fred, Fred… Civilized discussion is the basic tenet of the human experience. If one cannot have a logical civilized discussion then one is at a loss. What Keith was trying to point out is that Evangelical Christians and LDS have the same words in their dictionary but that is as far as it goes. The words have different definitions. For example: Salvation: LDS – Two fold meaning: Simple bodily resurrection of all people. Also, forgiveness of sins. Bible: Forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and in the future eternal life with God (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 6:23; 10:9-10). Keith or I could go over bunches of words and show the DIFFERENT meanings between LDS and what the Bible teaches. But without first setting the ground rules on what each means by what they are saying, it is pointless to discuss since we will be talking about 2 different things.
Can you, um, come to New Mexico?? lol I *wish* I could go to this, or I lived closer. I know you like to record them, right? Hopefully I can learn by watching through the net. Thanks for all you do 🙂
Holy moly I just read this whole thread… wow. Fred, buddy, pal, amigo….. reeellllaaaaaxxxx. You seem like you have a mind up there. I’d love to hear what you have to say. But having a reasonable debate is a two way street.
Anyhoo.
I look forward to hearing more about this mission trip.
Melissa,
Fred finally answered the question, but he couldn’t do it without an insult so I didn’t approve the comment. Fred’s contribution to The Edge no longer measures up to the trouble it takes to deal with him. I warned him about this in private emails, but I guess he thought I was bluffing. Either that or he just didn’t care.
Kind of a bummer for him! He could learn a lot. So could we.
My friend Shannon and I have been witnessing to two missionaries for about 3 months now. I’m learning a *lot*. I’ve been witnessing to jw’s for about 2 years. So I’m more familiar with them. LDS are sooo different in many ways. I’ve heard about these Manti mission trips through your ministry and Christy Harvey’s. It would do me so much good if I could go to one of these. I learned as much as I could on the ‘impossible gospel’, and still learning. They basically give me the classic ‘I do my best and Jesus will do the rest’. Sending you all my prayers!
Melissa,
That is the problem that Mormons need to understand. If Jesus does the rest only after I do my best… how many of us REALLY do our best?
The missionaries that I’ve talked to *insist* that Jesus is sufficient. And I even had one tell me that they didn’t completely agree with the BofM when it said that we had to do everything we could first. Imagine that! lol
We met again today. They still look at me like I’m a potential convert. They’re reeeaaalllllyyy wanting me to ‘gain a testimony’. You’d think after 3 months, they’d see that I’m on to them lol
Witnessing to lds is completely different that witnessing to jw’s, at least in my experience. jw’s would have dropped me a *long* time ago with the way I’m questioning them. And it probably would have gotten a bit argumentative. (Though I try to avoid that at all costs.) lds seem a lot more ‘laid back’ if you will. At least in my experience. I’m still new with witnessing to lds, so I have a LOT to learn.
hence, why I love sites like this so much 🙂
The way the blog threading works, I can’t reply directly to your post after about four replies. I don’t know why that is the case. If your Mormon missionaries are saying that Jesus alone is sufficient to be forgiven, then ask why you need to join their Church. If you already have Jesus, then you are set. Who needs Joseph Smith?
Hey Keith see ya in a few weeks!