JW and I met at a local fast-food restaurant for lunch. We spent a good 45 minutes to an hour talking about his background and how he became a Jehovah’s Witness. He is a quirky, but likeable guy. Sometimes he can be annoying though. He would laugh at the end of almost every sentence. I don’t know if he is nervous or if that is a coping mechanism or what. I was thankful that he did not ask me about my occupation. When Jehovah’s Witnesses ask me, I tell them I am a missionary and leave it at that. They usually don’t pursue that very far. If they ask more, I’m not going to lie, but I also don’t say that I am a missionary to Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.
When the actual theological conversation started, I asked him about the first song that was sung at the memorial. It is song #25 titled, “A Special Possession.” The song is thanking Jehovah for the gift of the anointed. The anointed are the group of 144,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses who expect to live in heaven as God’s Government. I pointed out that songs sung in worship services are usually directed to God, so I was curious why they were singing about a “special” group of people.
I learned very quickly that I’m going to have to be careful with how I ask questions, because he was very slow in answering. We opened the JW Library app and looked at that song. He started going through the lyrics phrase by phrase, not line by line, but phrase by phrase. I knew that if we were going to continue at this pace, we would never really get to the more important things I wanted to talk about. He gave me some explanations about the song that I have never heard before. I was beginning to wonder if he had a good grasp on JW theology, but he has been a member since the 70’s.
I decided it best to bring up the last song they sang during the service, which was song #18, “Grateful For The Ransom.” That song says that the greatest act of love is when Jehovah offered his Son as a sacrifice for mankind.
KW: Do you remember how the speaker at the Memorial mentioned that the two greatest acts of love were when Jehovah offered His Son and the second greatest act of love was when Jesus agreed to die for mankind?
JW: Yes.
KW: Do you remember the cute story about how Jesus could have motioned towards Gabriel and said to Jehovah, “You know Jehovah, Gabriel over there is a pretty good Angel.” The speaker then made sure everyone understood that the reason Jesus didn’t volunteer Gabriel was because Jesus loves us. If Jesus loves us more than Gabriel, and demonstrated it by dying for us himself instead of sending Gabriel, then how can we say that Jehovah loves us more when he volunteered Jesus?
My friend didn’t know how to handle that question at all.
JW: Uh.. the way I see it, I’ve always though the two acts were equal.
KW: What the speaker said reminded of John 15:13 where Jesus says that the greatest act of love is to die for someone else. I don’t understand why the speaker would say that Jehovah’s Act was greater than Jesus’ act and why this song would say that? Especially when Jesus himself said that the greatest act of love is to die for someone else.
JW: That’s actually a really good question. I’m going to have to think about that and get back you.
I followed that with another question.
KW: I have another question that’s very similar to the previous question. Again, getting back to the same theme of the greatest act of love, why is it that Jehovah couldn’t die for us Himself?
Again, he was caught off guard and literally blinked again.
JW: It is impossible because Jehovah cannot die.
KW: (I felt like Perry Mason by asking) We both agree that Jehovah is an eternal being. Is it possible for Jehovah to create a physical body and then leave that physical body, yet still exist because He is eternal?
He wasn’t sure how to handle that question either. Earlier in the conversation, we had talked about Jesus being a spirit creature before he came to Earth.
KW: If Jehovah and Jesus were both spirit before Jesus came to earth, why is it that Jesus could do that but Jehovah can’t?
I know that Watchtower theology teaches that Jesus, aka Michael before Jesus’ incarnation, ceased to exist before Michael’s life force was transferred to the body of Jesus. I didn’t want to let on that I knew that, and I was also confident that he would not volunteer that information even if he knew that doctrine at all. The Watchtower also teaches that Jesus ceased to exist when he was killed. He again stated that Jehovah couldn’t die.
JW: So, you are asking why Jehovah could not become a man?
KW: Yes, exactly.
JW: That sounds an awful lot like the Trinity to me.
KW: I’m not asking about the Trinity. I’m asking whether Jehovah could inhabit a physical body and then leave that physical body and return to heaven. Since He is Eternal, I don’t understand why the body could die, Jehovah can continue to exist, yet you reject this idea because you say that Jehovah cannot die.
He kept bringing up the Trinity and saying that it was impossible for Jehovah to become a man because that sounds too much like the Trinity.
KW: I’m getting the impression that you have a strong aversion to the Trinity.
JW: Well, no…
KW: I’m going to come right out and say it. It sounds like you are rejecting an idea simply because you think it resembles the Trinity. I’m asking you to entertain a thought based on it’s own merit, but you seem intent on rejecting it because it sounds like something else you don’t like.
I could see him trying to think of how to word what he wanted to say, but unable to come up with an answer that even satisfied himself. I gave an example about the restaurant that we were in. I explained that I didn’t understand why it was impossible for Jehovah to walk into the building, temporarily inhabit the building, and then leave the building without ceasing to exist. Even if the building burned down, Jehovah would still exist because he is eternal. He kept bringing up the Trinity so I had to continue telling him I wasn’t talking the Trinity. This happened three or four times. He said he would have to do some research and get back to me.
One of the things that struck me after our meeting was that the Watchtower teaches that after Jesus’ “resurrection” he temporarily manufactured a number of bodies that looked like the body he died in. He did this to convince the disciples that He had been raised from the dead. If Jesus was able to manufacture bodies and leave them without going into non-existence, then surely Jehovah can do the same thing. I’ve never thought of this before, and of course I cannot ask that question until he explains what he believes about Jesus’ “resurrection.” I don’t know how he would answer that question if or when I am able to ask it. We plan on meeting again but have yet to set a time.
He sounds a lot like my long-time JW friend, who has some of the same quirks. Very slow and methodical. It used to be annoying to me, but I have grown to love that about my friend. It means he thinks long, hard, and deeply about things, and doesn’t just dismiss them. I’m very willing to go through things with him phrase-by-phrase, because it means he’s actually engaging with the content. And I don’t have to be so quick on my feet. It gives me time to think and pray while we’re talking together. I encourage you to let him process at his own pace.
I’ve found it helpful to go through the existence of Michael-Jesus-Michael with my friend. Get him to explain all the transition points, so he can hear himself describing it, and how bizarre it sounds.
Also be willing to go through some things more than once. My friend asks me about things as though we’ve never talked about them at all. At first I thought he had forgotten whole conversations, but I came to realize that he wants to hear it again, because he’s still wrestling with it. He wants to find out if I’m going to be consistent, or if my viewpoint will change. And he wants to see the logical progression again, all the points and subpoints. Some might think he’s mentally disabled, but he might actually be highly intelligent, but in a different way. That’s how I think about my friend.
Lord, speak to the mind and heart of this JW friend of Keith’s, and use Keith to show your truth and your love.
Thanks for your wisdom.
Hi Keith
I have all the respect in the world for anyone who wants to engage in questions and answers with JW’s. Definitely NOT theological soft-ball. And the more I think about it, the more I HOPE your friend, as well as other JW’s ask themselves “If Jesus was willing to die for us, does that mean He loves us MORE than Jehovah?” That would really get them doing some “INDEPENDENT THINKING”/ Is that still a no-no in wt circles?
Hopefully my JW friend will begin to think about these things.