I am so smart because you are stupid.
Arrogant. Presumptuous. Rude. Inconsiderate. I could go on, but you get the picture. My Jehovah’s Witness buddy brought another guy with him today. Last week he came alone which is sort of a no-no for Witnesses. I prayed that God would arrange it again for this week, but for some reason God said, “No.” I now know why.
Just about every time we have met with a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon and they bring an unannounced friend, it tends to back fire on them. Some of the most impolite and condescending people I have met are JWs or Mormons brought into a conversation by someone I have been talking to previously. Such was the case today.
JW1 brought a new guy, JW2. As we were getting seated JW1 went to the restroom while JW2 and I sat down. JW2 said nothing to me until JW1 came out of the restroom and then he immediately attempted to take control of our situation by making a statement that there are so many different groups which claim to be Christian, yet there is only one Bible.
I thought it was disrespectful to wait until JW1 came out of the restroom and then launch into a discussion completely different than what JW1 and I agreed to discuss for today. This is our fourth meeting and to have a new guy attempt to redirect and control the conversation was impolite.
He then asked, “What would be your answer for that?”
KW: For what?
JW2: Why there are so many different denominations who all claim to believe the Bible. We only have one Bible yet all these differences of opinion. Why?
KW: Do you have a family?
JW2: Yes.
KW: Do you guys agree on everything?
JW2: No.
KW: Why is that? Aren’t you supposed to be unified?
JW2: What is the purpose of the Bible?
KW: I am answering that question…
JW2: (Interrupts) I disagree with that scenario.
KW: You don’t even know what the scenario is because you haven’t heard me out.
JW2: I’m 64 years old, I’ve heard it all…
KW: (interrupts back) So you know what I’m going to say?
JW2: Yeah.
KW: Then there is no point in me saying it.
JW2: That’s right.
At that point I immediately turned towards JW1 and asked, “What did you have for me today?”
I couldn’t believe this guy. He starts off by attempting to take over our conversation with an unrelated topic and then tells me that because of his age and vast experience, he already knows what I am going to say. I wish I could adequately describe the arrogant look on his face when he said that to me. I intended to continue my conversation with JW1 and what was funny was that both JW1 and I ignored his attempts to weasel his way back into our conversation for nearly 20 minutes. JW1 was embarrassed.
We were bouncing around on the topic of the deity of Christ and JW1 took me to Proverbs 8:22 which reads in the New World Translation, “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” The Watchtower uses this verse as a proof text that Jesus had a beginning. When I pointed out that the context of the whole chapter was the personification of wisdom, JW1 seemed stumped.
All through our conversation we were having a great discussion. He is not the typical JW who blindly defends his position without the courtesy of listening to the person he is talking to. One thing I keep telling him and would encourage those of you who are reading this to start saying too, is that we cannot agree or even disagree on something unless we first understand each other. Unless one first understands what the other person is saying it is impossible to know if you agree or disagree.
JW1 has taken this to heart because he is really trying to understand me. One time last week when he was attempting to disprove a statement I made about Jesus, I asked him, “Are you trying to understand me or are you trying to refute me?” That caused him to pause because he knew he was trying to refute me without even first understanding my position. You can’t refute unless you first understand. I will continue to remind him of this when I need to.
Unfortunately, JW2 made his way back into our conversation by asking JW1 a question. JW1 Answered it and JW2 took that as an opportunity to get back onto his soapbox. He began speaking about how God has always existed and that the first thing he made was Jesus. He then said that this “destroys the Trinity theory.” Taking the previous thought in mind about refuting and understanding I said to JW2, “I don’t think you even know what the Trinity is.”
JW2: How people came up with the Trinity doctrine, I’ll never understand. Ministers say, ‘Don’t try to believe it, it is a mystery.’ Well, I’m just not that stupid.
HERE IS WHERE THE FIREWORKS STARTED.
KW: I really don’t appreciate that last comment.
He continued on his diatribe so I stated again, “I really don’t appreciate that last comment.”
JW: Well, that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
KW: You are telling me that I am stupid because I believe something?
JW: I didn’t know you believed in the Trinity.
KW: Okay, well then now…
JW: (interrupts) If you believe in the Trinity…
KW: (interrupts back)… I’m stupid.
JW: I’m saying that this is what ministers…
I then turned towards JW1 and asked, “Where do you get these guys?”
JW2: You want to play word games.
KW: I’m not playing any word games. I’ve just been offended because you called me stupid.
JW2: That is your point of view. You didn’t tell me that you believed in the Trinity.
KW: You are going to go out and make a blanket statement that insults people and you don’t even know where they are coming from?
JW2: I am telling you that ministers have the audacity to tell people don’t try to understand it, it is a mystery, let’s go on to something else. Why do they treat people like they are stupid? Ministers make me upset because they don’t teach the truth.
KW: So that gives you the right to insult me.
JW2: I had no intention of insulting you.
KW: Well, then. What should you say next?
JW2: I didn’t realize I insulted you. You didn’t tell me that you believed in the Trinity.
KW: What should you say next?
JW2: You didn’t tell me that you believed in the Trinity, unless you were setting up a trap.
Once it became clear that he was not going to apologize, I turned towards JW2 and said, “I’m not sure I’m up for this.”
JW2: I’m not up for it either. JW1, I told you this would be a waste of time.
KW: So I’m stupid and a waste of time.
JW2: You and I didn’t hit it off from the beginning.
KW: That is because you walked in here with an attitude.
I was referring to how he tried to take control of the conversation in the beginning without giving JW1 the courtesy of asking what we were discussing. JW2 quibbled for another minute or two and then finally stopped talking. JW1 was stunned and sat in silence for quite some time. He finally said, “I am sorry it turned out this way.”
JW2 left the table and went to sit in the waiting area. We sat there is silence for a bit longer. Finally, JW1 started up again, “In Matthew chapter 24…”
From that point on our conversation went very well. I made sure that I was as agreeable as I could be. I wanted him to see the difference between how we can talk together and what it is like when he brings someone else. He admitted to me later on that he knew JW2 to be “feisty.” I asked that he not do that again. “If you are going to bring someone else next time, please don’t pick a feisty person. I don’t do feisty very well. Actually, it would be better if you didn’t bring anyone at all. I enjoy our conversations together.”
JW1 has giving me a couple of things to read and asked for my cell number even though he already had my home phone number. He said he might want to text me when things come to mind. This is good news. After a confrontation like this, it would be very easy for him to drop me, but I think he genuinely enjoys our discussions and is learning some things from a new perspective.
At first, I didn’t understand why God wanted “rude-dude JW2” there, but now I think I do. I think God will use this situation to show JW1 that it is better to discuss things with me alone. Now he will be free to think for himself. At least for a little while.
I think that Genesis 1:26 (Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.) clearly shows that all three were there from the beginning.
I disagree Jennifer. If a verse does not mention all three persons of the Trinity, then it can’t be used to prove that all three persons are deity.
On “Rude Dude with a Tude”, I find that quite funny Keith. You say that JW2 offended you by calling you stupid” which also means “slow to learn”. It seems you chose to think he meant “lacking intelligence”. You might want to review some of your comments to and about various members of the Church, Apostles, Prophets, Joseph Smith etc, etc, etc. It’s kinda like the pot callin’ the kettle black. ♥
Cherib,
You weren’t there, so you didn’t see his condescending facial expressions and adversarial body language. I don’t need a dictionary definition to know what he was saying.
Until you can provide examples of some of my comments crossing the line like this guy did, then all you have are empty accusations.
Thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. May JW2 be convicted of his arrogance and
may the seeds planted grow in both men and those to whom they may relate this encounter!
May The Lord provide abundant opportunities to continue to witness The Truth.
It is disappointing that people have to be the way you described JW2. You mention Mormons are this way also. Not all Mormons are like what you describe. I have met many people from many different faiths and have encountered attitudes, rudeness, arrogance, condescension, and so forth from people of all faiths. To say it is just Mormons and JW’s is not correct. Mormons can make blanket statements about all Evangelicals (and other religions) being rude, etc. just as you have said about Mormons and JW’s, and it would not be true. Or would it?
When I was 10 years old to 18 years old (when I graduated high school and left for college) an Evangelical woman that worked with my mother treated me horribly. I had no idea why until I was about 16-17 years old when a new kid moved into town whose father was a Baptist preacher, and the new kid treated me the same as the Evangelical woman did. It left a very bad taste in my mouth and I am suspicious of people of other religions, especially those religions that do nothing but tear down other religions. So from that horrible experience I had for 8 years I could say ALL Evangelicals and Baptists pick on all innocent little kids whose religion they hate, and teach their children bigotry, because they don’t have the guts to do it to the parents, and they are all rude, condescending, and so forth.
Actually, after dealing with that horrible woman, Baptist preacher’s daughter, and others, and from what I have seen on the Internet, I am starting to believe all Evangelicals and most other Christians are rude, have bad attitudes, are arrogant, etc. and treat people badly with whom they don’t agree theologically.
It can go both ways, and it does go both ways. There is good and bad in every race, culture, religion, and socio-economic class.
Thank you.
JRSG,
I never said that all Mormons are like I described. The post is about Jehovah’s Witnesses and I was clear that not all of them are rude either. JW1 is a perfect example of that. If you re-read my post, you will see that I never claimed that only Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons are this rude. I agree that there are rude people from all religions and faiths.
It is just that in my experience, and I’ll quote my post with emphasis, “some of the most impolite and condescending people I have met are JWs or Mormons brought into a conversation by someone I have been talking to previously.” I never said what you claim I said.
You also said that you are “starting to believe all Evangelicals and most other Christians are rude…” Do you feel this way about me too? If so, why?
Keith: I re-read what you wrote. I apologize.
As a little kid terrorized by someone without understanding why leaves a big mark. I really hope my case was an isolated incident.
About 95% of people of other religions, especially Southern Baptists and Evangelicals, that I have had contact with have always been rude to me and treated me badly.
I do not have bad feelings towards you. 🙂
Like I said there are good and bad people in all areas of society. I do get disappointed to hear of LDS people acting mean to others when they are being treated nicely.
Thank you. JRSG
JRSG,
Awesome! Thanks for your apology, You are forgiven.
I am sorry that you experienced the things you did as a child and hope those who treated you that way are convicted of their sin. I think we have all been guilty of treating people in ways less than they deserve. When I teach Christians how to witness to Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, I always encourage them to treat them with dignity and respect. I remind them that those with whom we disagree are people first and we need to treat them like we want to be treated.
Thanks for your continued participation on The Edge.
This is the perfect example of how a conversation should go; a gentle volley back and forth, complete with instruction, corrections, and forgiveness.
JRSG: I’m really sorry that you were treated so badly by the very people who should have been the ones to show you the love of Christ! I promise you that not all Evangelical Christians are like that!
When I first accepted Christ and began attending church, I was on fire for the Lord, and was often very harsh with people. I’ve since learned to temper my faith with gentleness, respect and understanding. I hope that the rude Christians you encountered have come to learn how to do the same.
Because of Jesus,
Linda
Why would you hope anyone is “convicted” of a sin? Why not hope they recognize the error of their ways and repent? ♥
Cherib,
The way this blog works, I can’t reply directly to your comment, but when Christians talk about people being convicted of their sin, we are saying that we want them to recognize the error of their ways and repent. We are saying the same thing so I am guessing that you are just unfamiliar with our terminology.
I have never conversed with anyone as rude, demeaning, critical, and presumptuous as evangelicals. ♥
I didn’t post this blog so that you can turn it around to attack Christians. Stay on topic please. If you have something to say about what I posted, then you are welcome to comment. Otherwise, your comments will not be approved.
I’ve only had a Jehovah’s Witnesses be rude to me once, but it was a very similar situation as yours. Two Witnesses came to my home, and I had a pleasant and long conversation with them. At the end of it, they agreed to come back the follow week, and we agreed on what we were going to talk about. The next week rolled around, and instead of the two previous Witnesses returning, one of them returned with an older guy I didn’t invite. I tried to pick up where we had left off, but the older guy tried to derail the conversation. And he was so rude to me, I eventually had to ask him to leave. And that is out of character of me because I usually avoid conflict like the plague. But this guy was just incredibly rude and insulting. He had a chip on his shoulder the entire time he was here. I wish I could remember what he said. I do remember at once point saying to him, “If we’re going to have a productive conversation with each other, we probably shouldn’t say things like that to each other.”
The big difference between Jehovah’s Witnesses and other Christians is that the Watchtower Society’s central core creed proclaims Jesus second coming in October 1914.
They sometimes try to obscure this today and say that he came *invisibly*.Yes,all other Christains are awaiting Jesus return,the JW say he ALREADY came in 1914.
Reports from TIME Magazine-*An even more extreme example of what might be called *masked churn* is the relatively tiny Jehovah’s Witnesses, with a turnover rate of about two-thirds*.
That means that two-thirds of the people who were raised Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer are.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are the highest loss of any religion.
–*tell the truth don’t be afraid*–Danny Haszard
FMI dannyhaszard(dot)com
Unfortunately, if JW1 didnt plan well for the study he was assigned JW2 by default in field service. When JW’s go out to meet with the group they might do some field work and then go to a study and therefore he is stuck with whom he was given at that group to work with if he didnt make arrangments prior for that particular bible study with a particular brother or sister. Maybe next time he will take the time to make pre arrangments with someone. What i normally do is i set up the stipulations by saying for the sake of relieving us of backtracking please bring the same partner always to my home.
Gus, thanks for the insider tips. I am going to push towards meeting alone.
Keith,
I know what you mean; I have experienced the same in my home when I have conversations with Traditional Christians. TC1 will sometimes bring with them someone who is more knowledgeable in Bible verses or in claims about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints being false, and very often that person is often the forceful, dominating type of person. More times than not, the TC2 is a self-proclaimed evangelical, and they work very hard to control a conversation.
fred
PS. Since I am no longer a PROTESTant I cannot be considered an EV, but if there were such a thing, I would be considered an evangelical Mormon.
PSS. If you want to see rude and crude, come to the next conference of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in Salt Lake City and have fun watching your fellow TC’s act like carny sideshow barkers. It is fun to watch.
Keith,
I know that many think it is valiant and loving to invite cultists into your home to try to bring them to God, to lead them out of their error, heresy and deception.
I know that these same people wish to act “Christ-like”, kind, offering hospitality, a warm greeting and a fond farewell.
I am not among these believers.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
When one preaches and teaches that Christ is not come in the flesh, such as the JW doctrine of invisible return of Christ, I must offend all believers that do as you do and obey the word of God by neither welcoming them into my home, nor giving them a good-bye when they leave.
I find it a similar, but much easier parallel to God telling Israel to kill all the inhabitants, even babes.
Often we try to be MORE Christian that Christ! This cannot be done.
We refuse to reject the heretic after one or two admonitions and to mark and avoid the troublemaker who calls himself a believer.
Because “Christians” forgo the obedience commanded in the age of grace, we have congregations weak and ineffective.
Brother, while I salute your heart to save the lost, I urge you to change your actions into a more obedient manner. Meet him or them in a place not your home and not tell them Good bye (the modern equivalent of God’s Speed). While we are to plant and water, doing so in complete obedience is much better than doing it our own way.
In Christ,
Art
Authur,
We have been meeting in a local restaurant, not in our home. There are a number of reasons for that which I will not get into on this blog. However, none of those reasons are in agreement with what you have said. I have a completely different view of the 2nd John passage you quoted. You can read it here.
http://www.evidenceministries.org/2012/08/no-jehovahs-witnesses-and-mormons/
It appears that you are using the LEB version for you basis on that link, you did not use a citation, so I may be wrong there.
Can we throw the light of context upon this?
2Jn 1:6 And this is love: that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist!
2Jn 1:8 Watch yourselves that you do not lose what we have worked for, but receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ does not have God. The one who remains in the teaching–this person has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not speak a greeting to him,
2Jn 1:11 because the one who speaks a greeting to him shares in his evil deeds.
I prefer the KJV and use others as aids. I am not a KJV Only-ist
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
I will speak to cult members in the street or in another place, but will not break bread with them because I cannot accept or agree in any prayer together with antichristians.
I can find zero scriptural support for going to antichristian’s abodes. That is quite different than to the atheist. I will have a beer with an atheist, because drinking is not a sin, but I will not get drunk. I will accept blasphemy from atheists, because they are without and God judges them. I will point out that they ARE sinning that, like me, they have no hope after this life, apart from Christ.
JW and Mormons usually run from me, because I hold a mirror up to them and they shrink and hate what they see.
I am glad to know you do not let them in your house. I hope you never say . “Good Bye”
God, not me, says that in so doing you become partaker in their sins. and there is no getting around that!
Arthur,
Repeating the same passage you previously quoted (plus one verse) is not throwing light upon the context. My article gives a historical context that you are still not taking into consideration. I don’t believe this passage applies to Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons at all. I believe it to be referring to allowing false teachers WITHIN the Christian community to come teach in a house church, or in our day, a church building type scenario. That being the case, I have no problem with Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons being in my home or even eating a meal with them.
If you are to be consistent with your interpretation of this passage then you cannot allow ANY unbeliever in your home for ANY reason.
Good luck with the Jewish plumber. 😉
When we bought our property we did not know the man’s wife was Jehovah’s Witness. The man did not go to any church (we found out later). When Christmas time came I took some home made baked good to them (still not knowing the wife was a JW). She was offended and told me they were JW’s. I apologized telling them I did not know they were JW’s. I turned around to leave with the baked goods and the man came running out and said “I am not a JW” and took the goodies! lol His wife was not happy.
About 5 years later they split off more property to sell. The surveyor came out and we noticed he was including our 1/2 acre in the property to be sold. We told him to stop and re-check the paperwork with the real estate company. The JW lady owner called us on the phone and called us liars, thieves, threatened to sue us, and went on a tirade about what low life’s we were for trying to steal their property. Their not so bright real estate agent did not see the paperwork for the 1/2 acre we bought after the 2 acres. I went to their house to get an apology and to show we could be friendly neighbors again. Let bygones be bygones. No apology, just more rudeness. So I told her I was going to sue them for slander, emotional damage, and all sorts of stuff, just to irritate her, and it worked. lol I know, I should not have done that. She was rude until they divorced and moved. I have had JW’s come to my house many times and so far they have been nice. I was friends with a JW guy in high school and he was the nicest person, and so were his parents. I learned about the JW’s from him.
Fred: True about the TC’s. I live in Arizona and they are at Mesa, AZ all the time.
JRSG,
Funny story. Just so you know, not all Christians are as rude as they are depicted. Even those who preach at pageants like Mesa and Manti. The next time you see one of them, politely engage in conversation. You will find that they can be quite accommodating. If you don’t prefer the ones who are street preaching, then approach someone who is quietly handing out tracts.
Keith,
Now that I live alone in my “older” age, I am more willing to invite strangers into my home then I was when I was younger and responsible for the care of a family. Even the Good Samaritan did not take the stranger into his home, he paid a professional to care for the sick man’s needs.
In Luke 10:35 is says, “And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.”
fred
I’m not following you, Fred.
@ Linda: Thank You! I really appreciate your comment. I think rudeness has become the norm in all aspects of society. I will shop at a higher priced store if I am treated with friendliness and respect versus putting up with employees who are rude and don’t care I am there at a store where I can save a little. I can understand why you used to be harsh with people when you first accepted Christ. I think we have all done something like that at one time or another.
@ Keith: I think I will engage the people at Mesa the next time I am there for something (I do not live there). And thanks to you too for the nice comments. I do know some Mormons can get an attitude and when I see it I let them know it is not appreciated.
This is about Fred’s comment – when I had a young family I was not always able to invite people in I did not know, whether it was vacuum cleaner salesmen, security alarm salesmen, JW’s, etc. I was always nice and would ask them to return at a more convenient time. Now that I have one teenager left at home it is easier for me to talk with someone who just shows up. I do not know if that is what Fred means, but I take it that way. (We now live in the boonies and I guess people use GPS to find houses because we get all kinds of people and we are not easy to find.) 🙂
Keith, You may have answered this before. It is my understanding that Evangelicals can come from different religions. Like, are you Baptist or Lutheran, or are Evangelicals their own entity and are not associated with any particular religion. I am trying to understand.
Thank you for your time.
JRSG,
One common misconception that Mormons have of the different denominations of Christianity is that they are, as you put it, “different religions.” While some of them disagree over secondary issues,the various denominations are largely in agreement on the fundamentals of Christianity. We all view ourselves as Christian, but not as different religions.
Evangelicals are considered more fundamental, conservative and evangelistic in nature. There are some denominations of Lutherans, Methodists and others who would be considered “evangelical” while some are not. Those which support liberal ideas like homosexuality or do not view the Bible as inerrant would not be consider evangelical.
I attend a nondenominational Church which is an independent church not affiliated with any denomination. Does that help?
Keith, it does help. Thank you for taking the time to explain. 🙂
JRSG
Keith, I’m super curious how the trinity got brought up. Maybe I missed that in a past blog you wrote. Usually, I avoid the trinity (at least for a while until I’ve gotten some sort of relationship with them) but you’ve been at witnessing to jw’s a while, much longer than I. Had you a;ready been talking w him for a while?
I’d love to hear your thoughts on when to bring this up (besides when prompted) in a conversation with a jw, and when to avoid it. In my experience, I’ve had jw’s *completely* do a 180 on me after we talk about the trinity. They’ll love me until they find out I’m an ‘evil’ trinitarian lol Then, simply, they just treat me different. A lot colder.
I think my JW buddy brought it up on our third meeting. I wasn’t too thrilled about it when he did because I knew the potential of him getting uncomfortable and dropping me. I prefer to address the Trinity after a relationship has been built as well. We have met five times to date, but now is not the time to talk about it. He told me this week that if I wasn’t going to believe him about the Trinity, then I wouldn’t believe him about anything. I had to work and pray hard to overcome that.
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Man Keith I need to start going back to class…I thought I was ready for this but for some reason I’m feeling inadequate right now. I’ve also been volunteering to try and get with my church worship team and the practices also were on thursday but may be Wednesdays now, we’ll see.
Jehovah’s witnesses are people like everybody else. Are you judging? Oh no,it’s a JW and he is rude rule him out as a bad person and also the other Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I know how the False Trinity Doctrine came about! want to hear it?!
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