Mormonism Confirms That It Is Not Moving Towards Christianity

Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy (Proverbs 27:6).

A number of years ago I was asked to be on a local call-in radio program to talk about Mormonism. The San Antonio LDS temple was conducting a public open house at that time. The radio host who thought of the idea wanted two guests, one person representing Mormonism and one person who disagreed with it. The original idea was for both of us to be on the radio at the same time and do some sort of lively debate.

Unfortunately, the Mormon public relations official chosen for the event absolutely refused to go on air with me at the same time. The only way he would agree to do it was if I went first and then a he would go on 15 minutes after my time was over so that he could have a little bit of time to prepare. The radio host was perturbed at the Mormon’s insistence and asked if I would be willing to do the show anyway. I eagerly agreed.

As I was being introduced, one of the radio hosts was very clear about the fact that they would not allow me to bash Mormonism. He promised to take me off air if he ever thought I was even getting close to crossing the line in my comments. I was amused at that because I wondered what in the world they were told about me by the Mormon who reluctantly agreed to be on the show. I completely put the threats out of my mind and was as pleasant as I could be during the interview.

I was able to speak about Mormonism unhindered for 15 minutes on a live radio talk show. Since this was a secular radio station, both talk-show hosts were stunned at what Mormonism really teaches. Rather than prepare an outline with points I wanted to make about Mormonism, I just read portions from the LDS Churches own official, “Achieving a Celestial Marriage” teaching manual. In my opinion pages 129-132 of this manual contains the best explanation of the Mormon World View in print.

I explained that I was not there to condemn Mormons for believing what they want to believe. Everyone in the great country has the right to freedom of religion. However, what I do object to is the fact that most Mormons, and temple open houses in particular, are not forthright about what Mormonism really teaches. In my opinion one of the best ways to get at the bottom line of Mormonism is to read what they teach from their official teaching manuals.

This made perfect sense to both radio hosts. I was interesting because I got the impression that once my part of the show was over, they wanted to get the Mormon public relations official on air as soon as possible. They just couldn’t wait to talk to him about what they learned. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall to see how the Mormon was preparing for his part of the show. Fifteen minutes passed by until he was finally on air.

Imagine this if you can. I spoke about Mormonism for 15 minutes, unhindered. The two radio host then talked about what they learned about Mormonism for 15 minutes, unhindered. Now the public relations official has 15 minutes to try to undo the past 30 minutes. The first thing he was asked was something like, “Mr. Walker just read from an official Mormon Church teaching manual. Is this what you really believe?” I remember shouting out loud at his response. It is probably a good thing I was no longer on air.

“Well, that manual is no longer in print.”

Really? Is that the best you’ve got? Both radio hosts, and one in particular, devoured him. They must have taken notes or something because they would basically repeat some of the things I said and asked for clarification. I remember being surprised that they were so aggressive in trying to get to the truth about what Mormonism teaches. Because the Mormon public relations official was so evasive, they did exactly what I was warned about doing. They were not rude or out of line, but they did not let him get away with anything. It had to be the absolute worst case scenario imagined for the Mormon. The best part was, I couldn’t be blamed for it.

Fast forward to yesterday. One of my favorite ex-Mormon, Christians found something on one of the Mormon Church’s newer web sites which reminded me of the aforementioned event. It is a short, less than two minute, video which quotes something which appears in the “Achieving” manual. In 1909 the Mormon First Presidency published a document titled, “The Origin of Man.” I do not remember if I read that portion during my radio interview or not, but I am very familiar with this section because I bring it up often when I teach about Mormonism. The quote states, “Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of our earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages of aeons, of evolving into a God.”

Yep. That about settles it. Have you heard all those reports from naive Christians (Read Richard Mouw) and Neo-Mormons that the LDS Church is distancing themselves from earlier teachings and moving towards a more evangelical view of Christianity?

This video is new. This video states that the views expressed in the “Origin of Man” document is, “The Church’s doctrinal position on these matters.” This video also states the document is based on, “divine revelation, ancient and modern,” and most importantly, this video is official.

I would LOVE to hear the responses of Richard Mouw and the Mormon public relations official to this video. Just because a manual is no longer printed, doesn’t mean it isn’t still taught and believed by millions of Mormons world-wide.

http://history.lds.org/article/joseph-f-smith-teachings-the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

88 thoughts on “Mormonism Confirms That It Is Not Moving Towards Christianity”

  1. Wow. Thank you for sharing this!! I am so grateful that I can just believe what I believe – and share what I believe without wondering if my church has changed what I believe recently.

    1. Recently, is the key word here Connie. Your church has changed what you believe so often that there are now reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations. Recent changes would be impossible to detect, given that humongous number of changes.

      1. @dbundy,
        This is argument is not not fallacious, but ignorant of Christian Church History – and when used by Latter-day Saints, it’s hypocritical to boot.

        Fallacious, because there may be 41,000 Christian denominations but they all agree on the ESSENTIALS of the Christian faith. You will find an excellent summary of those essentials here: http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity

        Should a group no longer (or fail to) hold to those essentials then – as the LdS Church does – it forfeits it’s right be classified as a Christian Denomination and slides into “Christian Cult” status. The referenced article names a few such groups.

        Ignorant because if you knew Christian History it shows that while there have, and probably always will be, differences among Christian Denominations on non-essentials (types of baptism, speaking in tongues v. no speaking in tongues, alcohol consumption versus abstinence, etc., etc., etc) there is unity on the essentials.

        St. Augustine of Hippo expressed this well in this famous saying:

        In essentials, unity.
        In non-essentials, liberty.
        In all things, charity

        And, BTW, St. Augustine wrote that in the 5th Century. What was true then is true now.

        Hypocritical, because the 183-year history of the Latter Day Saint movement has generated between 200-400 denominations (the number varies based on what size constituted a valid “denomination” in the eye of the researched doing the counting). Please feel free to reference the following resources and do your own research on this assertion:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

        http://www.amazon.com/Divergent-Paths-Restoration-Steven-Shields/dp/0942284135

        http://www.amazon.com/Scattering-Saints-Schism-Within-Mormonism/dp/1934901024

        Further, since there is no consensus within Mormonism as to what constitutes “the essentials of the faith” the type of broad, diverse unity that you see among Christians on doctrinal essentials is conspicuously missing in these Mormon groups.

        Finally, it should be noted that given the current rate of fragmentation in the Latter Day Saint Movement, Mormon denominations will FAR surpass 41,000 by the time the movement reaches it’s 2013th year.

        So if one wants to use a “nose count” as a argument for apostasy then the LdS Church, when objectively compared and contrasted on an per capita basis, has already lost.

        Thank you.

        1. Your argument is specious. There is such disagreement on “essentials” that many Christian pastors are left despairing for the Church. For instance, Pastor Randy White says he’s afraid there is less and less place left for the Bible-believing Christians, but he believes that the rapture will be his escape.

          Another pastor, David Lankford, who strongly condemns the doctrine of the rapture, desperately seeks to heal the body of Christ, clearly implying it is not ready for the coming of the Bridegroom.

          The fact is, Scott, you have been deceived by the cunning of the devil, and, because of your unbelief and that of those like you, who fight against Zion, the servant of the Lord will surely be marred, but his life is in the hands of the Lord, and he shall heal him and show unto the children of men that his wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

          I always wonder why exmormons are always those who cannot understand the gospel of Christ, that they can only be saved through the merits of Christ and that they must be born again, until they leave the Church the Father has established among the Gentiles, according to his word.

          You don’t understand, Scott. It is only those of modern Israel who are the true Christians of today. They are the elect of God, those who hear his voice, not those who condemn it. All others will be cut off, if they don’t repent.

          1. @dbundy
            YOU WROTE:
            Pastor Randy White says he’s afraid there is less and less place left for the Bible-believing Christians, but he believes that the rapture will be his escape.

            Another pastor, David Lankford, who strongly condemns the doctrine of the rapture, desperately seeks to heal the body of Christ, clearly implying it is not ready for the coming of the Bridegroom.

            MY RESPONSE:
            The rapture is a non-essential doctrine. Apparently you failed to actually read the article that I provided.

            I don’t believe in the rapture but Randy White is still my Christian brother and I can and will happily worship with him any time anywhere. I’m sure that David Lankford would say the exact same thing.

            Your comments reveal a further, even greater, ignorance of the Christian Church and how it actually functions.

            YOU WROTE:
            There is such disagreement on “essentials” that many Christian pastors are left despairing for the Church.

            MY RESPONSE:
            Really? Who are they? The example you cited is on a non-essential doctrine.

            And I don’t disagree that some churches are abandoning essential doctrines. I addressed that in my post, perhaps you’ve forgotten, or failed to read it:

            “Should a group no longer (or fail to) hold to those essentials then – as the LdS Church does – it forfeits it’s right be classified as a Christian Denomination and slides into “Christian Cult” status.”

            Now, that said, could you please explain to us how any of this is any different than the 400 some Mormon Denominations that have formed at a far faster per capita annualized basis in the last 183-years?

            As someone else here said (paraphrasing) it seems that for a pot you sure love to call the kettle black!

            Or put another way, maybe you’d better put that stone down before you break your own glass house.

            Thank you.

            1. I wrote a reply and then lost it trying to do it on an IPad. Suffice it to say that the Bible doesn’t distinguish between essential and non essential doctrine. It does say that when the Lord again brings Zion, those that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and those that murmured shall learn doctrine, and I’ll leave it at that.

              But as far as Randy White’s dispair, you tell me. This is what the man said concerning the changes in Christianity:

              “It is a very difficult issue…, but I can tell you I’m not going missional, I’m not going transformational, I’m not going pragmatic, I’m not going secret sensitive, and I’m not going neo-calvanist.” (referring to popular precepts of men in non-LDS Christianity.)

              “If I stand all alone, then that’s where I’ll stand, with the word of God, because we can’t [just be unified in the essentials and have grace in the non-essentials], when the Bible tells me no, we’ve all got to know the same thing and believe the same thing. There are not two truths, when it comes to the scripture. It tells us one thing….
              When it comes to Southern Baptist pastors like me, I would say that there’s going to be increasingly no space for us, no place, and we’re going to be increasingly uncomfortable with what we see and hear.” (Brannon Howse Show, May 2, 2013)

              Now, that should end the argument, but I’ll bet it won’t.

              1. @dbundy
                YOU WROTE:
                I wrote a reply and then lost it trying to do it on an IPad. Suffice it to say that the Bible doesn’t distinguish between essential and non essential doctrine.

                MY RESPONSE:
                Nonsense. The essentials are DEFINED by the Biblical record. Christ and the Apostles were quick to denounce those who had deviated from Biblical essentials. If you want specific examples you need only read the article which clearly states in the opening:

                The Bible itself reveals those doctrines that are essential to the Christian faith. They are 1) the Deity of Christ, 2) Salvation by Grace, and 3) Resurrection of Christ, 4) the gospel, and 5) monotheism. These are the doctrines the Bible says are necessary. Though there are many other important doctrines, these five are the ones that are declared by Scripture to be essential (I call them primary essentials since the Bible declares them as essential).

                The article then proceeds to produce Biblical citations in support of that opening statement. The Bible does INDEED define the essentials of the faith. The non-essentials don’t need to be defined because they’re, as the name states, NON-essential. We’re free to disagree and bicker about them all we want – they just don’t matter.

                BTW, since we’re on the subject, could you please show me where I can find a statement that defines the essential doctrines of the LdS Church? I can’t seem to find it anywhere on the church website and the Mormons that I’ve asked this question to can’t seem to find it either.

                REGARDING RANDY WHITE
                Now regarding Randy White’s so-called “despair” once again you’re showing your ignorance about how the Christian Church works. Assuming that you’ve reported faithfully (which I’m skeptical of), he was expressing frustration over styles of ministry and theological systems (missional, transformational, pragmatic, secret sensitive, neo-calvanist, etc.) that he disagrees with. Those are NOT, as you stated, “changes in Christianity” since the underlying essential doctrines of those using these ministries are the same as Mr. White’s.

                As for his statement, “When it comes to Southern Baptist pastors like me, I would say that there’s going to be increasingly no space for us, no place, and we’re going to be increasingly uncomfortable with what we see and hear.” I’m tempted to say, “And?” This is standard Southern Baptist hyperbolic rhetoric – they love talking like that and we non-Baptists watching it from the outside looking in because it’s amusing theater and nothing more.

                In fact, I feel uncomfortable with much of what I see going in the Southern Baptist Church too. So what? They’re still my brothers and sisters in Christ and I will happily and freely fellowship and worship with them.

                Mere talk you might reply? No. One of the largest Southern Baptist Churches in the country (Saddleback Community Church) literally sits in my backyard (it’s about a 5-minute drive from my house) and while I’ve never been a member I have a LOT of friends who go there who I love and who love me. I’ve attended MANY services there and have always been blessed and edified. And some of them have attended my non-SBC church and have said the same thing.

                Again, we’re united on the essentials of the faith and we are all Christians.

                What you are trying to “sell” here is nothing more than empty rhetoric based on agenda driven eisegesis (such are your bracketed editorializing in your last post) and blind, unyielding ignorance, nothing more.

                Oh, and BTW, you STILL haven’t addressed the rampant, run-away denominationalism on the Mormon side of the division. So if you want to continue to throw stone at glass houses I will once again say:

                “Pot” you REALLY need to look in the mirror.

                1. I am sure the Bible doesn’t distinguish between doctrine as essential and non-essential, but as I told you, I don’t want to bicker over it. If you have decided that you can do away with baptism, for instance, as non-essential, fine. Have at it, I don’t see anything to be gained by arguing with you over it.

                  As for the Randy White quote, I assure you it’s accurate, but I don’t think you understand him any better than you understand me.

                  1. @Douglas Bundy
                    YOU WROTE:
                    I am sure the Bible doesn’t distinguish between doctrine as essential and non-essential, but as I told you, I don’t want to bicker over it.

                    MY RESPONSE:
                    Mr. Bundy, there’s really nothing to bicker over. I’m not asking you if the list in Matt Slick’s fine article is the essential doctrines of the Christian faith given in the Bible I’m telling you.

                    YOU WROTE:
                    As for the Randy White quote, I assure you it’s accurate, but I don’t think you understand him any better than you understand me.

                    MY RESPONSE:
                    That’s quite amusing coming from someone who gave us a list of ministry and theological systems as “proof” of changing essential Christian doctrines. Amusing indeed!

                    Now, Mr. Bundy, I’ve spent my entire life – over a half century now – in the Christian Church and have attended the services of and worshiped with Christians of just about every flavor and ilk imaginable.

                    This includes 5-years of attending Promise Keeper events with LITERALLY stadiums filled with Christians of every race and denominational expression imaginable. The smallest event was around 50,000 people and the largest over 70,000 – and they were all my brothers and sisters in Christ and we were united on the essentials of the faith listed in the article that I’ve provided.

                    This “great ball of confusion” myth that Latter-day Saints have about Christian churches isn’t just wrong it’s WOEFULLY wrong. It comes from exactly the type of ignorance (not to mention condescending arrogance) that you’ve articulated and express so well in post after post here.

                    I understand that the concept of “unity in diversity” isn’t understood by many Mormons but the caricature of us that you’ve presented here really takes the cake.

                    So who do you think understands Randy White better – the guy who’s spent his life in churches led by pastors and filled with people like him, or the guy who it’s painfully apparent from his words doesn’t know that world in any significant first hand at all?

                    Never-the-less, the REAL burning question here is when are you going to address those 400-some Mormon Denominations that you keep ignoring in your responses?

                    The fact that you continue ignoring and doing everything in your power to avoid addressing them is telling.

                2. You wrote:

                  “BTW, since we’re on the subject, could you please show me where I can find a statement that defines the essential doctrines of the LdS Church? I can’t seem to find it anywhere on the church website and the Mormons that I’ve asked this question to can’t seem to find it either.”

                  Here: http://www.voicesfromthedust.org

                  You wrote:

                  You said , ” The scriptures are clear . Only gathered Israel
                  is truly christian .”
                  So only Mormons are the only true christians ? Wow .
                  I think that should be up front and center on the Mormon
                  church official web site !

                  From the official proclamation of 1845:

                  […]

                  The only salvation remaining for the Gentiles is for them to be identified in the same covenant and to worship at the same altar as Israel.

                  […]

                  You wrote:

                  But Jesus warned us all about false prophets who would
                  come in the latter days , these men would introduce
                  false doctrines . Such are the prophets of Mormonism ,
                  Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God ,
                  subsequent officers in his church taught that the God of
                  Israel was not always a ruler nor always God . But the
                  Bible reveals the true God —Psalms 90:2 .

                  The only true and living God is the God of Israel who said he would perform a marvelous work and wonder in our day, because of the hypocrisy of Christians, but there would be those who would not believe it, though a man would declare it unto them.

                  The work is his strange work, his act his strange act, which brings forth the words of a sealed book, which the learned reject, but which become the vision of all. The deaf hear the words of the book and the blind see out of obscurity and out of darkness, but the scorner is consumed.

                  However, as we all know, “the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”

                  1. @Douglas Bundy,
                    Your response to an inquiry for a list of essential LdS doctrines is your unofficial website that expresses your opinions? Really?

                    Are you telling us that you have the appropriate level of priesthood authority to make that determination for all of Mormonism? Really?

                    After all, as Thirteenth President Ezra Taft Benson said:

                    “Doctrinal interpretation is the province of the First Presidency. The Lord has given that stewardship to them by revelation. No teacher has the right to interpret doctrine for the members of the Church. If Church members would remember that, we could do away with a number of books which have troubled some of our people”
                    (see Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.317; “The Gospel Teacher and His Message,” also cited in Charge to Religious Educators, pp. 51–52, and; The LdS Church manual, “Teachings of the Living Prophets”, p.25; http://institute.lds.org/manuals/teachings-of-the-livings-prophets/tlp-5-4.asp )

                    Are you telling us that you’re a member of the First Presidency? If so, why aren’t you listed on the roster?
                    http://www.lds.org/church/leaders/first-presidency?lang=eng

                    Further, I found NO list of Essential LdS Doctrines on that website.

                    As for the rest of your post: You’re putting words in my mouth, I didn’t say any of the things that followed, others did (MikeR I believe) did in other threads on this page. Please address your responses to them in the appropriate threads. I’m not interested in fighting other people’s fights.

                    Thanks.

                  2. dbundy, Mormon prophets are whom Jesus warned us would arise in the latter days . Your
                    eyes can’t see that fact at this time , but if you
                    keep reading your Bible you will know that they
                    have drifted into apostasy in their teachings
                    about the God of Israel .
                    You’ve ignored what I have said about how
                    Mormon leaders have taught that God was not
                    always God , nor was He always a ruler . Until
                    you can admit this is an egregious doctrine I
                    can’t take you seriously about what else you
                    may say about the God of Israel . You are
                    following men who have introduced their own ideas about God and wrapped them up and
                    presented them as ” gospel truth ” . If you believe
                    their error or keep following them you are in peril
                    Isa 9:16 . I worship the God of Israel , He is so
                    majestic and unique —-He has always been God.
                    That’s my testimony .

                    You also seem confused about the status of
                    ” gathered Israel ” . You say they are the only
                    ” true christians “, but yesterday you said to
                    Keith that only they can be considered
                    ” christians “.

                    So not only am I ( and Keith and the other non-
                    LDS here ) not a true christian , but I (we) are
                    not even christians ???

                    My friend you are in the dark about important
                    issues . That’s the bad news . The good news
                    is that you can escape from this malady by
                    exchanging your latter days prophets who run
                    your church from Salt Lake City and replace
                    them with God’s true authentic prophets , these
                    are in the Bible .
                    You can do this , it won’t be easy , but Jesus
                    will help . Please do it soon .

            2. Fred,

              You wrote, in part:

              I don’t believe in the rapture but Randy White is still my Christian brother and I can and will happily worship with him any time anywhere. I’m sure that David Lankford would say the exact same thing.

              Your comments reveal a further, even greater, ignorance of the Christian Church and how it actually functions.

              For being such an expert on Creedal Christianity (CC), you don’t seem to understand that Brannon Howse, Randy White and others are fighting a great apostacy in CC, which they see as being vast and consequential to the CC community of churches. They are fighting against it with all their heart, might and strength, while feeling that it is a losing battle.

              I have no doubt they are not referring to you and others like you, because you agree with them in the so-called essentials, but how did you miss Randy’s comment on the truth being one truth, that they can’t have two truths, one for the “essentials” and one for the “non-essentials.” Did you even read that?

              You wrote:

              Really? Who are [the despairing CC pastors]? The example you cited is on a non-essential doctrine.

              And I don’t disagree that some churches are abandoning essential doctrines. I addressed that in my post, perhaps you’ve forgotten, or failed to read it:

              “Should a group no longer (or fail to) hold to those essentials then – as the LdS Church does – it forfeits it’s right be classified as a Christian Denomination and slides into “Christian Cult” status.”</blockquote]

              I gave you a good example and even quoted his words of despair, but you first doubted their veracity and then chose to ignore the most pertinent part of them.

              To get a full understanding of the apostasy, Fred, I recommend Brannon Howse's The Trojan Horse.

              You wrote:

              Your response to an inquiry for a list of essential LdS doctrines is your unofficial website that expresses your opinions? Really?

              Are you telling us that you have the appropriate level of priesthood authority to make that determination for all of Mormonism? Really?

              No, of course not. I just report what is stated in their official documents. In this case, it’s the voices speaking to us from the dust, by virtue of the Book of Mormon, copyrighted by the LDS Church. You will notice that the home page, the landing page quotes directly from the lips of Jesus Christ. I don’t think you can get any more official than that, do you?

              You wrote:

              Further, I found NO list of Essential LdS Doctrines on that website.

              Did you even read it? How can you have missed it? Let me give it to you again:

              And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

              And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

              […]

              Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

              And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

              1. @Douglas Bundy
                YOU WROTE:
                You will notice that the home page, the landing page quotes directly from the lips of Jesus Christ. I don’t think you can get any more official than that, do you?

                MY RESPONSE:
                In terms of LdS Theology YES, actually I DO think that you can get more official than that. Since LdS Prophets throughout history – including Joseph Smith – have regularly contradicted “quotes directly from the lips of Jesus Christ”. For example Jesus Christ said:

                “The same day came the Sadducees to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seen unto his brother.

                Now there were with us, seven brethren; and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased; and, having no issue, he left his wife unto his brother.

                Likewise the second also, and the third, and even unto the seventh.

                And last of all the woman died also.

                Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife shall she be of the seven? For they all had her.

                Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

                For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angel of God in heaven.
                (Matthew 22:24-30, JST)

                But Joseph Smith taught:
                “Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory”
                (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 300–301; also see “Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual”, ch.28 http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-28-celestial-marriage?lang=eng )

                And of course, the modern LdS Church teaches obeys the words of Joseph Smith in this not Jesus Christ so CLEARLY in the LdS Church the “quotes directly from the lips of Jesus Christ” really aren’t all that authoritative in the LdS Church.

                And this is just one of many examples that could be cited in this regard.

                YOU WROTE:
                No, of course not. I just report what is stated in their official documents.

                MY RESPONSE:
                Great! Then please show us where the First Presidency has stated that this passage from the BoM OFFICIALLY defines what is essential LdS Church doctrine. Big thanks!

                YOU WROTE:
                In this case, it’s the voices speaking to us from the dust, by virtue of the Book of Mormon…

                MY RESPONSE:
                OK, then since they’re NOT in the Book of Mormon and they’re VERY MUCH in the, “And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them” that the following LdS doctrines can be ignored as “non-essential” doctrines?

                http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2706272/posts

                YOU WROTE:
                … copyrighted by the LDS Church.

                MY RESPONSE:
                Well, I think that Keith Walker did a fine job of demonstrating that the words, “copyrighted by the LDS Church” mean NOTHING in terms of making something “official” in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzypKxr9knA

                1. Fred,

                  I pray that you will soften your heart before it’s too late. It is important for you to understand what the Lord is saying, but you are not hearing it, even though you have ears to hear, and you are not seeing it, even though you have eyes to see. If you would soften your heart, you would understand with your heart and be converted and the Lord would heal you.

                  With that much understood, let me try again to explain the truth to you. What Jesus is telling us is that he and the Father and the Holy Ghost are One God, and they testify, as One, that Jesus was sent into the world that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

                  Those who believe in him, believe his doctrine, which is truth, and whoso believes more or less than this doctrine, and establishes it for his doctrine, the same cometh of evil and is not of him.

                  So, what is this doctrine? Jesus teaches it plainly, as I have already quoted him. It is that we must have faith in him, repent, become as a little child, and be baptized. That is it!!!

                  Well, then, what about the LDS doctrine of eternal marriage? What about the doctrine of salvation for the dead, who died not in Christ? What about the doctrine of paying tithing? What about the doctrine of temple ordinances? What about the doctrine of the three degrees of glory? What about the doctrine of the Man of Holiness? What about the doctrine of the priesthood?

                  All of these doctrines are revealed doctrines of the Church, which the Father promised to establish among the Gentiles, for all those who would repent, who would not harden their hearts. Here are the words from the lips of Jesus, whom the Father sent, saying, “Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him:”

                  “22 [Thus saith the Father…] But if they [the Gentiles] will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

                  23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

                  24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

                  25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.” (3 Ne 21)

                  Obviously, if these doctrines of the Church, which the Father promised to establish among us, which is known as the LDS Church today, will enable us to build a holy city in which the power of heaven will be found and also the very presence of Jesus, then there can be no contradiction with the words of Jesus relative to his doctrine.

                  If you will soften your heart, I will endeavor to explain this mystery to you, if the Lord, by his grace, will grant me the ability to do so:

                  When those who repent and hearken unto the words of the Father are baptized, they are numbered among the remnant of Jacob, the only ones who will not be cut off from the people of the Lord, the only ones who will not be cut off from the covenant.

                  What is the covenant referred to? It is the covenant of the priesthood, which is after the holiest order of God, which is without beginning or end. Jesus explains:

                  “39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

                  40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

                  41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

                  42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

                  43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life.

                  44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

                  45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

                  46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

                  47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

                  48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.

                  49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

                  50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.

                  51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.”

                  52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

                  53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.”

                  So, we can easily see that there is no way to come unto the Savior, and via the Savior come unto the Father, but by this way, If someone says they can enter by some other way, that includes something less than this, or requires something more than this, they are lairs, because there is no other way.

                  After they enter by the way, all is not done. There’s much more to do, much more to learn, much more that is required, and if it goes against the traditions of men, causing us to hesitate, we must repent and submit, as a little child would submit, or we cannot continue. So, again, the doctrine is that we must repent, and become as a little child, or we can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

                  Anything more or less than this cometh of evil, as the Lord says.

                  Capiche?

                  1. @Douglas Bundy,
                    Oh, I “capiche” real well, I just wish that you did.

                    Well, I can see that we’re to the testimony bearing section of the program so … I would like to bear my testimony.

                    I know that the Triune God of Israel, YaHWeH Elohim is the only true God.

                    I know that I have been saved by accepting the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ through His death and resurrection by faith, and faith alone. I know that this was a grace gift that God gave me by choosing me. I did nothing to deserve it or and there is nothing that I can ever do to earn it – it was a gift from God. And it is through that gift, freely given and freely received, I declare that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and He is Lord!

                    I now have an intimate relationship with God through the gift of the Holy Spirit who helps and guides me. I am His and He is mine, His banner over me is love.

                    I know these things not only by the witness of the Spirit in my life but by the evidence of my changed life, thoughts, desires and general world view – and through the witness of the written word of God, the Bible, which is my absolute standard for all things seen and unseen.

                    Here I stand, I can do no other.

                    In the Name of Jesus Christ, my Lord, Savior and Friend, amen.

                    1. Dear Fred,

                      Thank you for your testimony. I am sure you are sincere. The bad news is that wolves have entered in, not sparing the flock. “The great need of the hour is for you and me,” says Brannon Howse, “to warn the church of the false teachers that have come in among the church through a religious Trojan horse. These false teachers are speaking perverse things. The word perverse actually means speaking distorted or twisted things. Today, false teachers are promoting a form of godliness but denying God as spoken of in 2 Timothy 3:5.”

                      See more at: http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7311#sthash.BpGb06z2.dpuf

                      I’m just sayin.

  2. Mormon leaders with their teachings about LDS men and women becoming Almighty
    Gods and Goddesses potentially peopling worlds/planets with their vast offspring is not
    something that is readily going to be advertised to the public , nor admitted to by
    the Mormon missionaries unless the person they’re trying to teach is aware of it and
    asks them , and even then they may deny it . People are becoming more informed
    about Mormonism because of ministries like yours Keith . Thanks for your work .

    1. Mike,

      You are right of course. The Bible teaches that. Investigators and new converts should be given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, isn’t that right?

      How soon do you feed your babies meat, Mike?

      1. DBundy,
        Joseph Smith said it was “the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us.”

        Since when is the first principle of the gospel considered meat?

        1. That is the first principle of the gospel, but it must be taught wisely. The missionaries teach people that God is our Father in heaven and that he hears and answers our prayers. Their most important objective is to get people to discover that truth for themselves, to help them understand the importance of believing that they can converse with him in whose image we are created and expect him to answer, if they pray with real intent, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of Man.

        1. If it is a yarn, it’s not mine. Check it out on Wikipedia.

          Christ spoke to unbelievers in parables to confound them, because hearing they hear not and seeing they see not. In at least one instance, when he was straight with the pretenders, they quit following him.

          Anyway, let’s make the discussion more edifying than quibling. Please define the word God, as you understand it, so we can see what the Bible teaches about man becoming God, ok?

          1. dbundy, what I found far fetched about your comment to Connie was
            that you don’t even know what church she fellowships at and yet you
            claim it has changed beliefs often .Why would you say that ? Then you resorted to the worn out excuse of ” milk before meat ” as a
            response to what I said in my first post . These are anemic answers .
            Your rationale is that since there are many denominations and that
            there has been many changes in belief in non Mormon churches that
            therefore the Mormon church is the only true church of Jesus .
            Yet Mormonism is guilty of both these things as well . Fredwanson
            has mentioned the numerous Mormon groups that have sprang up
            since 1830 . I would call those Mormon denominations . So by your
            method of evaluation here you are resorting to a double standard.
            Or maybe the phrase ” the pot calling the kettle black ” is more
            precise .

            Since I stated teachings from Mormon leaders that Mormon males and females can become Almighty Gods and Goddesses
            and populate planets/worlds with their offspring , where does
            the Bible plainly teach those doctrines ? You might also include
            where does the Bible teach that God was not always God and that
            our Creator has a God above Him with more dominion and glory ,
            one who taught Him how to eventually become intelligent and
            strong enough to be able to say ” let there be light ” [ Gen. 1:3 ; Isa
            43:10-13 , 44:7 ]

            I’m not interested in you citing any Mormon apologetic sites , you
            should use official sources : church publications or statements
            from General Authorities .

            1. Mike,

              All the denominations of protestants are apostates in the view of the mother of harlots. All the Mormon groups are apostates in the view of the LDS Church. Hence, to charge the LDS Church with changing its position on any matter, with gratitude that non-LDS positions have not changed their own positions on any matter, is to be ignorant of the truth.

              The knowledge of the God of Israel came to the Gentiles from the record of the Jews, whose word for God means ruler, a ruler who is from everlasting to everlasting. My Bible-based arguments for how man becomes a ruler from everlasting to everlasting can be read in my previous dialog with Kieth. I don’t wish to repeat them here.

              The argument of this post is that the Mormons do not seek to move towards creedal Christianity, but it is a strawman argument, because the Mormons never have. The impression that they have, that this argument takes as its premise, comes from the wishful thinking of the enemies of the Church, who, in their cunning, take the efforts of the church to emphasize its Christianity in the public mind, as a move towards creedal Christianity.

              Nothing could be further from the truth. The scriptures are clear. Only gathered Israel is truly Christian. All others, who refuse to repent and to be numbered with Israel, are to be cut off from the covenant.

              1. dbundy , in your last reply to me , in the first paragraph ,
                you appear to be trying to create your own reality. You
                resorted to what amounts to the pot calling the kettle black
                in what you said to Connie . Your reasoning was flawed .
                Now you say that I’m charging the LDS church with
                changing its position on any matter, with gratitude that non
                LDS positions have not changed their own positions on any matter, is to be ignorant of the truth ?
                I never said non LDS churches have never changed positions, you said they did and used that and also that
                there are numerous denominations as proof that Connie’s
                church was not the true church , I merely reminded you
                that this was faulty reasoning on your part .

                You said , ” The scriptures are clear . Only gathered Israel
                is truly christian .”
                So only Mormons are the only true christians ? Wow .
                I think that should be up front and center on the Mormon
                church official web site !

                Lastly , you said , ” The knowledge of the God of Israel
                came to the Gentiles from the record of the Jews, whose
                word for God means ruler , a ruler who is from everlasting
                to everlasting . ”

                I completely agree that our Creator God has always been
                God ( from everlasting ) .

                But Jesus warned us all about false prophets who would
                come in the latter days , these men would introduce
                false doctrines . Such are the prophets of Mormonism ,
                Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God ,
                subsequent officers in his church taught that the God of
                Israel was not always a ruler nor always God . But the
                Bible reveals the true God —Psalms 90:2 .

                We’re hear to warn you of latter days prophets who,though well meaning, have not been sent by the God of Israel —
                Jer 23 :16 ; Matt 24;11

                1. The only thing we can be certain of in these discussions is that they are confused. It may be partially my fault for trying to carry on the dialog from my IPad. It’s hard to keep the threads straight on it.

                  So, let me re-iterate the dialog with you Mike. First, Connie expressed gratitude that she doesn’t have to contend with changes in doctrine in her non-LDS Christian life, like she would if she were still LDS.

                  I found that uninformed, as creedal Christianity has changed doctrines, laws and ordinances so much that there are over 41,000 different denominations that have split off from the original church.

                  You countered that comment of mine by pointing out that there are already 200-400 denominations that have broken off from the LDS Church in the years since it was established a mere 183 years ago. You pointed out that, because this is an even greater rate of apostasy than that of creedal Christianity, shouldn’t it be considered hypocritical to make my argument.

                  My point is, Mike, that you may be right, but it’s carrying the dialog on it way too far down the rabbit hole at this point. I don’t really care to discuss Connie’s comment any further than we already have.

                  Your next comment is much more interesting. You wrote:

                  Since I stated teachings from Mormon leaders that Mormon males and females can become Almighty Gods and Goddesses
                  and populate planets/worlds with their offspring , where does
                  the Bible plainly teach those doctrines ? You might also include
                  where does the Bible teach that God was not always God and that
                  our Creator has a God above Him with more dominion and glory ,
                  one who taught Him how to eventually become intelligent and
                  strong enough to be able to say ” let there be light ” [ Gen. 1:3 ; Isa
                  43:10-13 , 44:7 ]

                  For the first part, where you seek to know where to find the doctrine of exaltation, read the New Testament. You will find Jesus and his Apostles teaching that man may become immortal, sinless, divine, all knowing rulers, who are one with him and his Father, and who have been granted the right to his throne, to rule and reign in the house of Israel for ever and ever.

                  For the second part, understand that the answer to the first part implies the answer to the second part, or, if you can’t find this sufficiently suitable, consider it new doctrine, revelation that has caused earthly kings to shut their mouths, because they now see what they have never heard, and are now hearing what they have never considered,

                  After that, you wrote:

                  So only Mormons are the only true christians ? Wow .
                  I think that should be up front and center on the Mormon
                  church official web site !
                  […]
                  But Jesus warned us all about false prophets who would
                  come in the latter days , these men would introduce
                  false doctrines . Such are the prophets of Mormonism ,
                  Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God ,
                  subsequent officers in his church taught that the God of
                  Israel was not always a ruler nor always God . But the
                  Bible reveals the true God —Psalms 90:2 .

                  Keith and I discussed the “everlasting to everlasting” issue at length on another post, so I referred you to my answers there on that, but as to my statement that the only true Christians are LDS Christians and that all non-LDS Christians, who refuse to repent, to become as little children, and to be baptized, by the authority the Father has established in these latter-days, shall be cut off from the Christian community, just as Moses prophesied would come to pass, I stand by it 100% for it is the truth and I lie not.

                  1. dbundy, you said , ” My point is, Mike you may be right , but it’s carrying the dialog on it way too
                    far down the rabbit hole at this point. ”

                    I’m glad to see your error . Hopefully Mormons will
                    cease using the many denominations of christianity in the way they do in order to prove
                    that the Mormon church is the one true church ,
                    It only leads to un necessary rabbit trails .
                    Same for finding some “evangelical ” pastor and
                    using something he says to prove Mormonism
                    is true . I don’t take that tactic seriously as it proves nothing .

                    You said , ” for the first part where you seek to
                    know where to find the doctrine of exaltation ,read the New Testament . ”

                    I appreciate your using the N.T. to evaluate this
                    Mormon doctrine . But the N.T. does not teach the Mormon doctrine of exaltation .Now man
                    can be , because of Jesus , reconciled to their
                    Creator and glorified in order to live in His presence in heaven with Him , worshiping Him
                    and praising Him for ever . But not as Gods.
                    He is Almighty God , there’s only one God , always has been always will be .Since Mormon prophets have
                    taught otherwise therefore I can’t take the

                    Mormon doctrine of exaltation as being true
                    because your prophets have been so unstable
                    in their teachings about the God of Israel, the
                    one true God . Until they get that right and in accord with the Bible’s teachings about Him
                    why would anyone need to accept their
                    teachings about anything else ?

                    Psalms 90:2 , Mormoni 8:18 :
                    The God of Israel’s existence AS GOD
                    will continue to be for ever and ever, as His
                    existence AS GOD has been for ever and
                    ever without any beginning.

                    When Joseph Smith revealed his great “secret” in 1844 that God was not always God
                    he identified himself as a false prophet whom
                    Jesus long ago predicted would come .
                    Subsequent Mormon prophets expanded on his new doctrine . Brigham Young at one time even taught that the Father of the spirits
                    of man was the God Adam . Compare this
                    with Num . 16:22 . See my point about
                    prophets arising in the latter days who have
                    not been sent by God ? see Matt 24;11

      2. The 1997 version of Gospel Principles was very quick (in the first chapter) to teach, “All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him–a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).”

        For some reason they felt this ‘meat’ should be removed even though we don’t have accounts of any ‘babies’ complaining during the last 21 years before the current version came out.

        Jim

  3. I wish I could have been your counterpart on that radio show, Kieth. I would have welcomed the chance to discuss it with you face to face on the air. The first thing I would have asserted is that the Mormon doctrine of exaltation is taught in the Bible. Joseph Smith could see it through the haze of centuries that had overlaid it with the precepts of men.

    You may have all these layers of false traditions to stand on when you point to this doctrine and call it heresy, but in reality you fail, and your followers fail, to define the word God, before you gasp at the thought that Jesus is a man, the Only Begotten Son of the Man of Holiness, whom the prophets testified should come into the world, to make all those who believe in him, one with God.

    By failing to define what you mean by the word God, you escape the inevitable conclusion that the doctrine in that video is glorious revelation to a world that lies in the cross hairs of Satan, who is determined to denigrate man, to destroy the work of the Father, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    For all those who have found themselves in the famine, not of bread, nor of thirst for water, but of hearing the word of God, would you please define the word God, Kieth?

    1. So you wish you could have been on that show with me? What credentials do you have to officially speak for the LDS Church? They didn’t want just anyone on the show.

      1. My credentials are no less legitimate than yours. Do you claim to represent 41000 denominations of Christianity? But, forgive me, I don’t want to be contentious, Keith. I seriously believe that non-LDS Christians are sincere, but mislead in most instances.

        Please understand that LDS Christians don’t yearn to move toward creedal Christianity, to be accepted by the creedal Christian community as just another one of their 41000 denominations.

        What Mouw and others have tended to see as that trend is the effort of the leaders of the Church to leave no doubt in the public mind that Mormonism is Christianity itself, defined by the God of Israel himself, not Christianity as defined by the traditional creeds of the Gentiles.

        That’s why they have proclaimed to the world that the only salvation remaining for the Gentiles is for them to repent and to be baptized, by those he has sent, and thus to be identified in the same covenant and to worship at the same altar as Israel.

        In short, only gathered Israel can be considered Christians. The rest must be cut off, for the Lord has spoken it.

    1. manxmandan,
      Cool name.

      The LDS Church proves that they are not moving towards Christianity by confirming the belief in doctrines viewed as heretical by Christians. You can’t move towards something if you continue to disagree with it.

      1. Is that it? Really?

        So the heading “mormonism confirms” is made up?

        No surprises there then.

        By the way, it is not possible to ‘not move towards’ something that you already are.

  4. Being LDS myself I have no problem admitting that the doctrine in the video is real and acceptable. I know that I might open myself up to some bashing and lambasting but it doesn’t change anything for me. I am sorry that the public relations person wasn’t up to snuff, and I won’t try to argue his reasons.
    I know that people are often shy about expressing their feelings as they have been attacked so often (I know that I have been on many occasions). While as LDS (Mormons) do have additional teachings that are not shared by other Christians the basic beliefs are: Christ is our Savior, His dying for us allows us to share in our forgiveness and it is by His grace that we are saved.

    1. John,
      Thanks for you honesty. You would make a terrible public relations official. 😉

      As for your “basic beliefs,” once you realize that terms like “Christ, Savior, grace and saved are completely redefined by Mormonism, then you will understand that we do not hold any of that in common.

      1. Oh, I totally belief that the way that we interpret the Bible and revelations are completely different, if we were the exact same you wouldn’t have a problem with “Mormons”. 🙂 That we do believe in Christ and that we are saved by him though cannot be denied. That we also believe in continued revelation and that what the Lord said in the Bible that he will command him word through Prophets is a key difference. But as long as we both continue to strive towards Christ and His teachings we will have the change to be friendly. I don’t begrudge you that you are different than me, and I don’t begrudge that my understanding is different. As long as we are both civil and Christlike we will be able to solve the differences in the end. Keep up the good work and keep searching for Truth…

  5. It definitely surprises me that this is an official video released by the church. I have seen the Mormons trying so hard to blend into acceptability as “Christians”…. I am glad they are releasing such things … it hopefully removes all doubt from ignorant true Christians that they are anything like them.

  6. I just turned 42 yesterday Monday September 23, and I was Mormon for 38 of my 42 years…Yes, I became a “Born Again” believer in the BIBLICAL JESUS a little over 3 years ago. I know more now about Mormonism then I ever did as a practicing one! The Mormon Church is “DISHONEST” about their own history! The Book of Mormon came from a HAT & ROCKS, while the(whited sepulchres) that run Mormon INC. place doubt in the HOLY BIBLE with their 8th article of(blind)faith don’t question the HAT & ROCK theory and call it the most correct(ed) book on the face of the earth. How I wish more mormons would just ask GOD of the HOLY BIBLE to come into their lives…and ask that the scales fall from their eyes, so that GOD through his “ONLY” SON JESUS our LORD & SAVIOR can start to open your eyes to see that It’s only by GRACE a”FREE GIFT” that we can be Saved! Start reading in the Gospel of John as a child and see for yourself if you don’t have a change of heart. Once you start the transformation from thinking you can become like our GOD (CHRISTIAN VIEW),and realize in humility that your a Sinner in desperate need of the saving grace of the BIBLICAL CHRIST, you will start to see the beginning of a “NEW CREATION” Being Born again in the Biblical Christ, and I tell you it will set you free from the damning bondage of Mormonism! JESUS “NOT” JOSEPH!!!

  7. I think this video is only a small sampling, or a peek, of a much larger worldview of the Latter Day Saints. They are taught a “drama” about our universe and our place int it that is confirmed (to them) by the restoration of apostolic and prophetic authority, spiritual signs and wonders, and true doctrine. They view themselves as part of a vibrant process of the salvation of (almost) the entire human race. Who wouldn’t want to be part of that? That’s what all the New Religious Movements, as we call them now, offer. Rev. Sun Myung Moon tried to unite all of the 41,000 Christian denominations so that the Messiah could return, peace would rule the world, and God’s original plans for humankind would be completed (perfect marriages and blessed families). The same could be said for any number of other groups. But is their vision truly representative of the biblical worldview? That’s what is at stake. As alluring as the promises are within a group like the LDS church, we Evangelicals keep having this nagging question about truth running through our heads. When Richard Mouw says that the teaching of this video has no place in modern day Mormonism, we have to respectfully disagree and document why we think so. I could say more, and if you want to dialogue about this, I’m up for that. The best answer to Mouw that I’ve seen is by professor Ronald V. Huggins,
    http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/49/49-3/JETS_49-3_549-568_Huggins.pdf

  8. hi John,

    I don’t begrudge LDS beliefs although they aren’t mine. I too believe in civil, respectful dialog. You wrote:
    “…that we do believe in Christ and are saved by him though cannot be denied.”
    The big difference between Christians and LDS beliefs is hidden in your response. What you didn’t say is, I believe, what you really feel: “…we believe in Christ and are saved by him, after all we can do.” Did you leave that core LDS belief from 2 Nephi 25:23 out on purpose? Because that’s a big difference, a huge difference between Christian and LDS belief. Christians believe that belief that the grace of God, given freely to all believers in His Word, is enough. There is nothing more we need do, no works are required. That doesn’t mean that we don’t do works out of love and gratitude towards God. Requiring works on top of Christ’s sacrifice means that Christ didn’t do enough for us. It shows a lack of understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9.
    Blessings,
    -Steve

  9. @Douglas Bundy
    The following email has just been sent to Randy White and Brandon Howse:

    Dear Brandon and Randy,

    I’m an Evangelical Christian in debate with a Mormon who’s using excerpts from the May 2, 2013 Brannon Howse Show as evidence that there is no consensus on the essential doctrines of the faith* and for support for his assertion that:

    “Your [non-Mormon, Creedal] church has changed what you believe so often that there are now reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations. Recent changes would be impossible to detect, given that humongous number of changes.”

    Here’s how he has presented the excerpts from the aforementioned show as supporting evidence for that claim:

    ‘“It is a very difficult issue…, but I can tell you I’m not going missional, I’m not going transformational, I’m not going pragmatic, I’m not going secret sensitive, and I’m not going neo-calvanist.[sic]” (referring to popular precepts of men in non-LDS Christianity.)

    “If I stand all alone, then that’s where I’ll stand, with the word of God, because we can’t [just be unified in the essentials and have grace in the non-essentials], when the Bible tells me no, we’ve all got to know the same thing and believe the same thing. There are not two truths, when it comes to the scripture. It tells us one thing….
    When it comes to Southern Baptist pastors like me, I would say that there’s going to be increasingly no space for us, no place, and we’re going to be increasingly uncomfortable with what we see and hear.”’
    (Brannon Howse Show, May 2, 2013)

    I have attempted to explain to him that you, Mr. White, were simply referring to ministry styles (transformational, pragmatic, secret sensitive) and theological systems (neo-Calvinist) that you disagree with and won’t participate in. In other words, your disagreement is on non-essential doctrines, not essential doctrines and this disagreement is most certainly NOT representative of the type of “Great Apostasy” taught in Latter-day Saint theology about non-LdS Churches.

    To this he responded:

    “For being such an expert on Creedal Christianity (CC), you don’t seem to understand that Brannon Howse, Randy White and others are fighting a great apostasy in CC, which they see as being vast and consequential to the CC community of churches. They are fighting against it with all their heart, might and strength, while feeling that it is a losing battle.”

    While I’m confident that this Mormon has misunderstood your words and intentions and misrepresented your stances I simply can not reason him out of his position because, IMO, he keeps eisegeting words in your mouths and inferring thoughts in your minds that I difficult to believe that either of you would concur with.

    If you would like to cross check my claims, you will find the discussion here, on Keith Walker’s Evidence Ministries website blog: http://blog.evidenceministries.org/mormonism-confirms-that-it-is-not-moving-towards-christianity/

    Your assistance in clearing this matter up would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you.

    Fred W. Anson

    * FYI, I provided him with a link to Matt Slick’s article, “The Essentials of the Christian Faith” (http://carm.org/essential-doctrines-of-christianity ) as a common point of reference on exactly what those essentials are.

    I will post the reply(s) once I receive them.

  10. So if as Christians we believe that we are saved by the work Jesus the Christ did on the cross, How is it possible to add to that. How are your good works going to change the fact that Jesus had to be made in the image of sinful man. That he had to live a perfect life in perfect harmony with God. Being of God concieved by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin woman. That made Jesus fully human and also fully God. He lived a life we could not live. He died a death we all should die. We all have wondered from the will of God. Jesus became sin in order that we might be reconciled to God. There is no other way to God. Only through Jesus. We may try to be like Jesus but the Gospel is not a call to try to be like Jesus or imitate him. The Gospel is a call to be transformed by the power of his love and mercy and grace. Again let this sink in Jesus says “I am the truth and the way and the life” “No man comes to the father except through me”. He alone rose from the dead. He alone has the power to raise us. No ceremony, no keeping of the law, no compilation of a life of servitude will be enough. It is only Jesus. This is the Christian hope. This is the Christian understanding of salvation. If you don’t believe me read your Bible. Please. So until the LDS Church teaches this doctrine alone. It will never be in line with Christianity no matter if it wants to be or not.

    1. Robert,

      AMEN…Simply AWESOME!!! John 14:6 Jesus says “I am the truth and the way and the life No man comes to the father except through me.” I know this now at the age of 42, but it took me 38 years to roam the wilderness as a practicing Mormon to realize that I am nothing without the BIBLICAL “CHRIST” and until the Mormons stop thinking like the Pharisees of the Old Testament, they too will continue to wonder aimlessly thinking arrogantly that they alone are the “ONLY TRUE” church on the face of the earth…all the while burying their head to the “NEW TESTAMENT” they claim to believe, but rarely read it! I urge Dbundy and all Mormons alike to read the New Testament (Romans 10:2) and see for themselves that the GOD I now worship stated this in HIS Inerrant Word Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. Hence MORMON TEMPLES!!!

  11. I don’t know dbundy or fredwanson, but since I was mentioned on a number of occasions in this thread I will add my two cents worth.

    First, Mr. Bundy has taken some comments which I said in a total different context and tried to apply them here. I am certainly discouraged about the lack of commitment to the Bible that I see by many Christians. However, the total disregard for the Bible by Mormons is a completely different story. If I was talking about Mormonism I would encourage them to see the Bible as the sole source of revelation about God and His will and plan for man. There is no need for “another testament” and any word other than the 66 books of the Bible should be disregarded.

    Second, on Mormonism moving toward Christianity. To do so they would have to totally abandon their core principles, beliefs, and teachings of their founder.

    1. This doesn’t appear to be a response to your email message, Fred. In fact, Randy White says he doesn’t know you. It looks like maybe he found the discussion independently.

      He wrote:

      “First, Mr. Bundy has taken some comments which I said in a total different context and tried to apply them here.”

      Well, I’m not sure he understands the context here. I understand it as the context of the Creedal Christianity (CC) agreement on “Essential” doctrine. Agreement on essential doctrine qualifies the CC community as “one” body, the body of Christ, which must be “one” (that is, it must be agreed on doctrine), because if it is not, the words of the Savior state that it is not his.

      By making a distinction between “essential” and “non-essential” doctrine, the CC community hopes to qualify as one body unified in Christ. Now, in this context, Mr. White said that making such a distinction is not right:

      “[W]e can’t [just be unified in the essentials and have grace in the non-essentials], when the Bible tells me no, we’ve all got to know the same thing and believe the same thing. There are not two truths, when it comes to the scripture. It tells us one thing….”

      You see, he says the CC community can’t make the distinction that Fred is trying to make. Therefore, if this context is not the context in which these words apply, please tell me what is, ok?

      1. Douglas (dbundy),
        Your are quickly losing all credibility. I think you need to step back and take a look at how you are representing yourself to others.

        It is utterly and completely ridiculous to quote someone, be corrected by the person you misrepresented and then claim that the person you misrepresented doesn’t understand the context of your misrepresentation. If you are not going to believe the person who corrected you, why did you quote him in the first place?

        1. Oh my, you guys need to hold yourselves to the same standard you hold the saints. Why don’t you explain the true context of his words, if what you say is so clear? Or invite him to do so.

          Anybody, who can read and understand English sufficiently, can see that he plainly says “There are not two truths, when it comes to the scripture. It tells us one thing….” How is that statement out of the context of Fred’s claim that the CC community is one body in the truth of “essential doctrine,” while the mixture of truth and falsehood that the CC is not united on, which has come riding into their community on the Trojan Horse, which Mr. White is lamenting here, is “non-essential” doctrine, and therefore doesn’t count as disunity?

          If that’s the case, why does Mr. White lament so? He clearly softens his position now, when he joins the anti-mormon crowd in their scorning and scoffing, maybe to save face, but when he was talking to Mr. Howse he stated “[W]e can’t [just be unified in the essentials and have grace in the non-essentials]. Check it out for yourself (the qualifying brackets are inserted to make conversational language intelligible in writing.)

          Don’t you tell me I’m losing credibility. Just tell me how the context has been changed here. The fact is that the Gentiles have built up unto themselves many churches (41,000 denominations), which cause envyings, and strifes, and malice. It’s not my opinion, it’s a fact that is a matter of record. They are not united in essentials, expecting the grace of God to cover for their so-called “non-essential truth.” Non-essentials do not cause envyings, strifes and malice between those who are otherwise united in the essentials.

          The conversation that Mr. White had with Mr. Howse, which I cited, was not in the context of different styles of ministry, but in the context of life and death Biblical issues, and Mr. White knows it, as anybody who listens to the recording can hear for themselves.

          But this is not unknown. Mr. Howse did not invite Mr. White to discuss breaking news, but rather to discuss his book, The Trojan Horse, which was years in the making and free for anybody to read for themselves. Trust me, its theme is much more serious than the lack of commitment to the Bible that the author sees by many Christians, and Mr. White and millions of Bible-believing CCs know it. It’s about full blown apostasy overtaking the CC community, and Mr. White is finding that, when it comes to Southern Baptist pastors like him, there’s going to be increasingly no space for them, no place, and they’re going to be increasingly uncomfortable with what they see and hear.”

          This is clearly NOT referring to his style of ministry to the unified body of Christ, which is disappearing, but to the non-unity of the body in the essentials of the Bible. Again, there are not two truths to be embraced by the CC, one essential and the other non-essential, according to M. White.

          How much more plainly can it be stated?

          1. @Douglas Bundy,
            Mr. White was kind enough to take time out of his busy schedule to come here and clarify his stance. By doing so he has most certainly “gone the extra mile”.

            Yet you STILL continue to misquote him, eisegete into his words, and claim to know more about what he’s thinking and body of work than he does.

            I was initially willing to assume that you were confused about what he was saying and the context in which it was being said because you’re not a mainstream Christian and thereby lack the cultural acumen to have a full cultural “in house” understanding of what he was trying to communicate to the Christian audience that Brandon Howse’s show is targeted at.

            However, now it’s plain that you’ve got a dogmatic LdS agenda and you’re going to push it – period. And confirmation bias, eisegesis and spin doctoring are the engines you’re going to use in that effort.

            As Keith said well, “If you are not going to believe the person who corrected you, why did you quote him in the first place?”

            It’s now apparent that reason and logic – EVEN Mr. White’s very words – are wasted on you and you’re committed to driving over that cliff into the valley of agenda-driven self-deceit no matter what.

            It’s pretty sad to watch.

            1. You guys are so funny! Instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks, why don’t you just show us your strong reasoning?

              Come, let us reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet, yet they shall be as white as the driven snow, if only you will soften your hearts.

              Isn’t it more and more clear to you that the only thing the CCs can truly unite on is the fight against mount Zion?

                1. Fred,

                  I’m sorry, but you are not reasoning with me, you are simply multiplying words. If you were reasoning with me, you would show me how the charge by Pastor White, that I was applying his words out of context, is true.

                  What is the proper context? It’s very obvious that the context is not one of ministry styles, as you asserted, because he plainly said that there cannot be two sets of truth, one set of essential doctrines, which are agreed to by all CCs, and another set of non-essential doctrines, for which there is no consensus by the CCs, but is covered by grace.

                  I did not misquote him, I assure you of that, and besides, if I had, he would have said so. Therefore, you should stop parroting over and over that I am being less than honest and have a personal agenda that is impervious to your reasoning. Your reasoning is non-existent.

                  The fact that Pastor White backtracked, in the face of an outsider pointing out to others of his ilk that his discouragement with the lack of commitment to the Bible, which the SBC and other denominations are so alarmingly demonstrating, is tantamount to admission of the LDS premise of apostasy in the CC community, does not change the fact that it is!

                  You wrote:

                  “Clearly Mr. Bundy you are twisting and bastardizing the content of Mr. Howse’s show to meet your personal agenda. It’s obvious that when you listen you’ve already come to the conclusion first and then you bend the content of the show to fit it rather than letting the evidence lead.

                  This is known as Confirmation Bias.”

                  Well, that’s quite the accusation all right, but that’s all it is. Why don’t you show us how that is true Fred? Show us the twisted logic I used, the bastardized content I presented. You can’t do it, because the accusation is false.

                  You wrote:

                  “I think a simple question here will expose just how ridiculous this tactic is . . .

                  Q: Even if everything that you’ve claimed about Brannon Howse and his guests is true do you REALLY think that their answer to the issues they address is, “If you’re in the audience hearing this you need to go get baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! That’s where the truth can be found!”

                  Randy White has already given an emphatic, “No!” If Mr. Howse should reply to my email or, as Mr. White did, come onto this board do you think that would be his stance? Mr. Jordans? Any of his other guests?

                  I think the answer is clearly no.”

                  Now, here, Instead of showing the reasons why you accuse me as you do, you tacitly admit that you can’t do it, and instead replace your accusation with a denial that the reality of an apostasy leads to the conclusion, which you have stated so well: In effect, you say, “Though there might be an ongoing apostasy in the CC world, and the need for a restoration might be clearer than ever before, don’t think for a minute that it lends any credibility to the LDS claim of a restoration!!!

                  Well, I would love to address that here, but Keith doesn’t like these comments to get too long.

                  1. @Douglas Bundy
                    This round of posts will be my last set of responses. Your behavior in this discussion is about as good a case study for Jim Whitefield’s observation that . . .

                    “As long as people want the Mormon Church to be true, more than they are willing to face the possibility that it is not, they will not entertain evidence or reason.

                    Delusion becomes a choice.”
                    — Jim Whitefield, “The Mormon Delusion Vol. 1”
                    (see http://exmormonscholarstestify.org/jim-whitefield.html )

                    … as one could hope for.

                    It seems clear to me that we’re trying to reason with a man inside the Mormon Tank (see http://mormonexpression.com/blogs/2011/08/13/the-problem-of-the-mormon-tank-revisited/ ) and until he joins us on the outside he’s going to continue to choose delusion.

                    YOU WROTE:
                    The fact that Pastor White backtracked…

                    MY RESPONSE:
                    Mr. Bundy you’re inferring and eisegeting again. He didn’t backtrack at all – rather, he stated rather nicely, politely, and respectfully that you’re wrong.

                    This is, quite simply, yet another example of how you engage in confirmation bias.

                    If you doubt me, I would encourage you to contact Mr. White directly as I did. You will find his contact information here:
                    http://www.randywhiteministries.org/contact-us/

                    Thank you.

    2. Thank you for your clarification Randy. This kind of thing happens all the time. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses read into our statements what they want to see. It seems like nothing will be proven to those who DO NOT want to know truth, even if the person they just misrepresented corrects them.

      Thanks again for you response.

  12. @Douglas Bundy
    YOU WROTE:
    You countered that comment of mine by pointing out that there are already 200-400 denominations that have broken off from the LDS Church in the years since it was established a mere 183 years ago. You pointed out that, because this is an even greater rate of apostasy than that of creedal Christianity, shouldn’t it be considered hypocritical to make my argument.

    My point is, Mike, that you may be right, but it’s carrying the dialog on it way too far down the rabbit hole at this point

    MY RESPONSE:
    Well the facts speak for themself regardless of what you think Mr. Bundy. As for, “it’s carrying the dialog on it way too far down the rabbit hole at this point” I respectfully disagree. This issue is central and key IMO.

    Let’s say that there really have been 41,000 Christian denominations over the 2000+ years of Church History. So what? As long as they’ve remained faithful to the essentials of the faith they’re Christians and they’re my brothers and sisters in Christ no matter how much I may disagree with them on non-essentials. If we could get all 41,000 denominations at the same Promise Keepers, Women of Faith, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Greg Laurie, etc., etc., etc. event I would worship happily embrace and worship freely with them and I HAVE seen them do the same with me. They’ve been blessed by our pastor’s sermons and I’ve been bless by their pastor’s sermons.

    This isn’t theory this is FACT!

    Bells, smells, choirs, collars, robes, suits and ties, tents, stained glass, sprinkles, dunks, or splashes – who cares? If they’re bibically aligned with mainstream Christian orthodoxy on the essentials they’re Christians. If they’re not, they’re a cult.

    Now Mr. Bundy, the following groups believe in the Book of Mormon and affirm Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God…

    Extant Splinter Groups and Sub-movements of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Brigham Young, 1847
    * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or Church of the First Born, Joseph Morris, 1861
    * The Prophet Cainan or Church of Jesus Christ of the Saints of the Most High God, George Williams, 1862
    * Morrisite Group, John Livingston, 1864
    * Church of Zion, William S. Godbe, 1868
    * Church of the First Born, George S. Dove, 1874
    * Priesthood Groups (Fundamentalists), 1890
    * United Order of Equality, Ephraim Peterson, 1909
    * The Church of Jesus Christ of Israel, J. H. Sherwood
    * Order of Aaron, Maurice L. Glendenning
    * Church of Freedom of Latter Day Saints, 1950s
    * Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi, Marl V. Kilgore, 1951
    * The Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Joel F. LeBaron
    * The Church of the Firstborn, Ross W. LeBaron, 1955
    * Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter Day Saints, William C. Conway, 1958
    * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, John Forsgren, 1960
    * Church of Jesus Christ, William Goldman, 1960
    * LDS Scripture Researchers/Believe God Society, Sherman Russell Lloyd, 1965
    * The Church of the Body and of the Spirit of Jessu Christ, Max Powers, 1965
    * United Order of the Saints of Guadeloupe, Michel Gamiette, 1966
    * United Order of the Family of Christ, David E. Desmond, 1966
    * Split from Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi, Eldon Taylor, 1969
    * Homosexual Church of Jesus Christ, Denver, Colorado, 1972
    * Latter Day Saints Church, N.S. Park, 1972
    * The Church of the Lamb of God, Ervil M. LeBaron, 1972
    * The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mikhail Krupenia, 1972
    * The New Jerusalem Group, Kathryn Carter, 1972
    * The Watchmen on the Towers of Latter Day Israel, Miltenberg, Braun, 1973
    * Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, Alexnader Joseph, 1974
    * Evangelical Church of Christ, Church of the New Covenant in Christ, John W. Bryant, 1974
    * Split form Zion’s Order of the Sons of Levi, Barton Kilgore, 1975
    * Affirmation, 1975
    * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Robert Simons, 1975
    * Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Bruce Wakeham, 1975
    * Aaronic Order Break-off, 1977
    * Christ’s Church, Inc., Gerald Peterson, 1978
    * Church of Jesus Christ, Art Bulla, 1978
    * The Restorers or School of the Prophets, Robert C. Crossfield, 1979
    * Zion’s First International Church, LeeAnn Walker, 1980
    * The Free Will Mormon Church, Franklin Lee Coleman, 1980
    * Church of Jesus Christ, Jorge Mora, 1981
    * Sons Ahman Israel, Davied Israel, 1981
    * Samoan LDS Church, New Zealand, 1981
    * The Millennial Church of Jesus Christ, Leo P. Evoniuk, 1981
    * Peyote Way Church of God, Immanuel P. Trujillo, 1981
    * The Chruch of Jesus Christ of the Saints in Zion, Ken Asay, 1984
    * Break from the Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, 1984
    * Church of Jesus Christ of All Latter-day Saints or Restoration Church of Jesus Christ, Antonio A. Feliz, 1985
    * Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints, Robert P. Madison, 1985
    * Church of Christ the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Siegfried J. Widmar, 1985
    * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Fundamentalists, Wight Family, 1985
    * Mormon Fundamentalists, England, Alan and Marian Munn, 1986
    * Church of Jesus Christ Omnipotent, 1987
    * Community of Zion, Central Utah Division
    * Church of the First Born, General Assembly

    … my question to you is this: Are they Mormons? And if not, why not?

    1. They may call themselves Mormons or not. I have no idea, but this much I know: They are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and the reason for this appears to be obvious: They have formed their own churches, apart from the LDS Church.

      However, I really don’t see what this has to do with Connie’s comment that started this whole conversation. I think Mike meant it as illustrating a case of hypocrisy, if an LDS Christian points out that CCs have changed so much that there are 41,000 or so different denominations among them, because there are 200-400 non-LDS denominations among the Mormons.

      It’s as if the argument were one of the pot calling the kettle black, but then the truth is that, if they are both black, it doesn’t change my comment to Connie at all, because, to continue the analogy, she was expressing gratitude for being part of a kettle that is not black! (i.e. unchanging)

      That’s what I call a real, fruitless, rabbit hole!

      However, what is a much more interesting topic is the fact that the apostasy that the anti-Zionists were so adamant to deny had ever occurred among the CC church, even though it seemed so obvious from the Biblical record to us Zionists, and even more so from their own historical record, is now recognized and greatly lamented by SBC pastors and others who are part of the so-called Evangelicals.

      Nevertheless, when I pointed out this lamentation over the Evangelical apostasy (EA), if you will, in the case of Randy White, it was denied, even by him, lamentably.

      Sad, sad you guys.

      You have to know that the EA is now upon the CC world of Evangelicals and, as Mr. White said, there is less and less space to be found for pastors like him, and he didn’t mean it in terms of style, but in terms of truth.

      Now, in case you are still not convinced, here’s the testimony of another SBC pastor, Pastor Jordan, interviewed by Brannon Howse on May 28th of this year:

      http://www.voicesfromthedust.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Brannon-Howse-wvwradio-05-28-13fixed_3_1.mp3

      1. @Douglas Bundy
        YOU WROTE:
        However, I really don’t see what this has to do with Connie’s comment that started this whole conversation. I think Mike meant it as illustrating a case of hypocrisy.

        MY RESPONSE:
        Actually, I was the one who said that your use of this argument was hypocritical not Mike. And the more you try to dodge, deflect and avoid it the more your lack of integrity is exposed.

        YOU WROTE:
        They may call themselves Mormons or not. I have no idea, but this much I know: They are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and the reason for this appears to be obvious: They have formed their own churches, apart from the LDS Church.

        MY RESPONSE:
        Well the Nazarene church that I grew up in is a different church than the Charismatic Presbyterian church that I’m in now. And the Baptist churches that I visit when I visit my family members in New Mexico is different than both of those churches. And the Methodist churches that my other family members attend are different than all those.

        Yet they are ALL Christians and they are all in Christ’s Church (capital C).

        We have unity in diversity yet you continue to tell us that our model is a problem?

        Meanwhile, you can’t even acknowledge that others in Latter Day Saint churches (small c) that share your core beliefs are Mormons – and that’s NOT a problem?

        Tell you what Mr. Bundy once you can tell me with confidence and conviction that those others Latter Day Saints are just as Mormon as you are, I’ll stop believing that your personal agenda is blinding you to the truth about us and about yourself.

        Or put another way, I’ll acknowledge that Mormons are Christian just as soon as you acknowledge the FLDS is Mormon.

        1. Fred,

          I don’t care if you acknowledge that Mormons are Christian or not. If the Father established his church among the Gentiles and you choose to fight against it, then how is that different from those who have broken away from it?

          It makes no difference in the end. Either you accept the work of the Father that has commenced upon all the earth to gather in his elect, as Jesus prophesied in Matthew Chapter 24, or you don’t.

          That’s a matter between you and God.

          1. dbundy, it’s been quite entertaining to watch to try and squirm out of this whole mess you’ve created with your faulty reasoning right from
            the get go. You even tried to parse the old saying ” the pot calling the
            kettle black ” in such a way as to help you out ! Yet you also said
            I may have been right in using this in the first place against your
            statement to Connie . It’s plain to see that we are experiencing the
            obvious rabbit trail that takes place when a Mormon resorts to using
            the many denominations of christianity as a proof that therefore the
            Mormon church has to be the one true church . Equally as silly is
            the way a Mormon might find some statement by some ” evangelical ”
            in order to prove Mormon doctrine true . You tried this and it did’nt
            go well for you either . Now instead of using these techniques in
            an attempt to prove Mormonism true why don’t you just do the right
            thing and compare what your prophets/apostles have taught with
            the Bible’s . Since Mormonism claims to be the very same church
            organization with the very same gospel and directed by the very same
            Jesus as in the New Testament then testing these latter days apostles is vital as per Gal 1:8 ; 2Cor 11:4 ,13 ; 1 Jn 4:1 .

            The new thread is about a latter days prophet and his teachings :
            Brigham Young . We see Jesus’ warning in Matt 24:11 come alive
            when we read what this latter days prophet taught .

          2. @Douglas Bundy,
            Again, this will be my last set of posts. I have found trying to reason you out of the Mormon delusion exhausting. You may have the last word – and I have no doubt that you’ll take it.

            YOU WROTE:
            If the Father established his church among the Gentiles and you choose to fight against it, then how is that different from those who have broken away from it?

            MY RESPONSE:
            Well this is interesting! That’s EXACTLY what the other LDS denominations say about the Brighamite LdS Church that you’re a member of – that Brighamite church has broken away from the clear and pure teachings of Joseph Smith and it is, therefore, in a state of apostasy.

            So if I’m to believe the OTHER LDS denominations, and were I member of one of those churches I could simply say at this point: “Douglas Bundy, the Father established his church among the Gentiles and YOU choose to deny it by remaining in the apostate Brighamite church!”

            In other words Mr. Bundy, “Excuse me Mr. Pot, but you’re the one that’s black, not we Kettles!”

            Mr. Bundy, in the land of LDS – the land that can’t even officially establish what it’s essential doctrines are – that sword cuts BOTH ways!

          3. – continuing from last post to Douglas Bundy –
            YOU WROTE:
            That’s a matter between you and God.

            MY RESPONSE:
            Oh, I couldn’t agree more! Which is why, once again:

            I would like to bear my testimony . . .
            I have diligently sought God regarding whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true or not. To that end, I have studied the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon and I have prayed consistently for over 30-years. I have taken the “Moroni 10 Challenge” and I have felt an intense “burning in my bosom” many, many, many times in my life — in fact, I carry it with me every day of my life.

            … and my testimony is this:
            I am utterly convinced that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a non-Christian cult, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, as is Thomas S. Monson. Further, I am utterly convinced that the Book of Mormon is an uninspired, man created work of 19th Century fiction.

            Here I stand before God and before men – I can do no other.

            In the Name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, amen.

            1. Fred, you exhibited patience with dbundy and succinctly
              dismantled his rhetoric . Great job in testifying to him about
              the truth because he truly needs the relationship that Jesus
              offers, not the religion that Joseph created .

  13. @Douglas Bundy
    YOU WROTE:
    The bad news is that wolves have entered in, not sparing the flock.

    MY RESPONSE:
    Yes, I know, just as Christ said they would. Which is why He gave us the test for a False Prophet in Mat 7:15-20 (vv24-29 in the JST) which said:

    “…beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing; but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Ye shall know them by their fruits; for do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”
    (from the Joseph Smith Translation)

    This is not to say that prophets are perfect, faultless human beings. Moses got angry, Elijah stressed out, even John the Baptist, the one who Jesus called the greatest prophet of all, got discouraged, yet they are still recognized as prophets.

    What Jesus is referring to here is the prophet’s overall life and actions.

    This is the test that Joseph Smith failed the most. Apart from his claims to being a prophet from God, his life is filled with transgressions against God’s laws that are in some cases downright appalling. He essentially broke all ten commandments more than once.

    Think about it: if you were to hear about somebody who claimed God was human, who changed the Word of God, who had people worship him, who pretended to restore the temple services yet forgot the true day of worship, who lied, committed adultery, coveted other people’s wifes, etc., wouldn’t you think such a person’s character “fruits” disqualifies them from being a prophet? And yet this is exactly what Joseph Smith did.

    In fact, Joseph Smith not only qualified as a False Prophet in accordance with Christ’s test, he did on every single Biblical test for a false prophet in the Bible. For your review those other tests are:

    Deu 13:1-11
    Seducing God’s people into following a God other than the one that they’ve known:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deu+13%3A1-11&version=KJV

    Deu 18:18-22
    Giving predictions of the future that fail to come to pass:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deu%2018:18-22&version=KJV

    1 John 4:1-3
    Denying that God eternal was incarnated as Jesus Christ:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:1-3&version=KJV

    Joseph Smith was a wolf who didn’t spare the flock.

    1. Fred, not only was. joe smith a con man and a false prophet, he himself can’t patrol the fantasy celestrial kingdom because he can’t have forgiveness by “his” own measuring standard due to killing two people at the Carthridge jail! See D & C 42:18-19

      Joe smith wore many hats, and created the Book of Mormon from hat & Rocks…this particular hat was made from the Reformed Egyptian Hierogliphics brand, that hat contines to play (hat) tricks on those subjective Mormon believers, even after the hat has been translated into different versions from a language never heard of!

      Jesus “NOT” Joe the Pedaphile smith!

    2. Fred,

      It’s not true. You have been deceived by the cunning of the devil. Brannon Howse is showing you the false prophets of this generation, who, as those of past generations, are not sparing the flock, but taking them for everything they have, including their eternal souls.

      Get his ebook, “Religious Trojan Horse,” and you can watch videos of the demon possessed CCs, who are the false prophets and the false apostles who have entered in among them.

      Of course, he uses Glenn Beck to include the Mormons among the wolves, who have entered into the flock in sheep’s clothing, but, this is a specious way of avoiding the uncomfortable fact that the Mormons long ago declared a CC apostasy and the needed restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church.

      Heavenly Father called upon his servant Joseph Smith, Jr. because he had a work for him to do, and he always reveals his secrets to his servants the prophets. So far, no one else has stepped forward to claim such an honor.

      The work that the Father had for Joseph to do was to begin the great work that he called his strange work, his act, his strange act. Now, this was to be a marvelous work, even a marvelous work and a wonder, wherein, because the CCs draw near to him with their mouths and do honor him with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from him, he has set his hand the second time to gather his people from “Egypt.”

      Now, you will recall the story of Joseph of Old, who was sold into Egypt by his brethren, I’m sure, and how, while his father mourned his death, because of the betrayal of his brethren, he came back from the “dead,” and saved his father’s house from destruction in the famine.

      You should understand that this is a type and shadow of the story of the Lord’s choice seer, the prophet Joseph Smith, whom he raised up from the fruit of the loins of Joseph of Old, only when Joseph rescues the house of Israel in our day, it is from the destruction of a spiritual famine. It is not a famine of bread, nor a thirst of water, but of hearing the word of the Lord, from which Joseph is to save the house of Jacob today.

      Yes, it is nothing less than the restoration of the house of Israel, in which the Lord will turn the things of the wicked upside down, turning Lebanon into a fruitful field that is esteemed as a forest, where the deaf hear the words of the sealed book, read not by the learned in universities, but by the unlearned servant of God, and the words of the book become the vision of all, enabling the blind to see out of obscurity and out of darkness, causing the meek to increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men to rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

      You see, this is the reason why Jacob will no longer be ashamed, and why his face will no longer turn pale, because, when he sees this work of the Father’s, this marvelous work and wonder of God, the work of his hands, Jacob will see his children gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, sanctifying the name of the Father. Yessiree, they sanctify the Holy One of Jacob and fear the God of Israel.

      They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

      There is sooo much more to show that Joseph Smith was truly called of God, in fulfillment of the great prophecies of the Holy Bible, but you’ll have to go to my website, http://www.voicesfromthedust.org, or to my YouTube channel, http://www.youtube.com/user/douglasbundy, to learn more.

      1. @Douglas Bundy
        Again, this will be my last set of posts to you – dude, you’re exhausting!

        YOU WROTE:
        Of course, he uses Glenn Beck to include the Mormons among the wolves, who have entered into the flock in sheep’s clothing, but, this is a specious way of avoiding the uncomfortable fact that the Mormons long ago declared a CC apostasy and the needed restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church.

        MY RESPONSE:
        Well Mr. Bundy thank you for proving our point regarding your confirmation bias. Obviously there is NOTHING that Brannon Howse, or anyone else can say to do to dissuade you of your logical fallacies, irrationality, and, yes, it must be said, Mormon Delusion.

        The man absolutely and empathically contradicts and condemns your stance yet you CONTINUE to cite his work? As Keith said well, “If you are not going to believe the person who corrected you, why did you quote him in the first place?”

        Now I’m not going spin more cycles on someone who’s hunkered down in the Mormon Tank comfortable and at joy with their skewed, near psychotic worldview.

        I would suggest, since you think so much of his work, that you contact Brannon Howse directly and present your arguments to him. I would LOVE to hear that conversation but I’m so exhausted from trying to snap you out of it that I just don’t have the energy at this point!

        Brannon Howse’s contact information is as follows:
        http://www.worldviewweekend.com/contact

        Thank you.

        1. Dear Fred,

          I know you mean well, but you just don’t make any sense. What do you suppose the title of Howse’s book, “Religious Trojan Horse,” means?

          Maybe you would understand easier, if he had entitled it, “Religious Wolf Pack Enters the Flock in Sheep’s Clothing,” but I think he must have thought that the idea of deception (“beware of Greeks bearing gifts”) would be better served with the name he chose.

          I gave you the words of two pastors, interviewed by Howse, to help you understand the severity of the CC apostasy that Howse is seeking to expose and rally resistance against, but, as Pastor White lamented, he has little hope that they can stop it, and he seems resigned to the inevitable fate of the CC community’s commitment to the essential doctrine of the Bible.

          Now, Mr. Howse, you will notice, if you listened to the link that I provided, which links to Pastor Jordan Hall’s interview with him, started off the interview with the interrogative, regarding the note of sadness he (i.e. Howse) thought he could hear in the Pastor’s voice, as he delivered his talk in Montana (not included in the link that I provided).

          He said, “Pastor Jordan Hall joins us. Pastor, thank you for joining us and thank you for your courage, your conviction…I sensed a, actually I sensed a broken heartedness by you in that presentation. I imagine that this has been something that has been grieving you for some time. Is that what I was hearing in your voice?”

          Pastor Jordan replied: “Yeah, Brannon, …You know, it wasn’t an easy message to preach. I even have some a …a little bit of anxiety listening to it. Umm, but it’s been something that I’ve been struggling with in Montana and in the way our commission is here and what I see elsewhere in the country.”

          They then go on to discuss some very serious issues about the essential doctrine of the CC world, and Howse says even though he goes to the scriptures with these people, he cannot get through to them. Then he asks Pastor Jordan, “And I don’t know if these are people that are not saved, or these are people that are just so worldly. I’m not sure which it is…maybe it’s a mixture, what say you with the people you’ve dealt with that will not respond to even the very word of God you bring to bear on the issue and their reluctance to repent? What is that? Are we dealing with people who aren’t saved, or are we dealing with people who are just very hard hearted?”

          The Pastor replies that it’s probably a little bit of both and then he goes on to give a concrete example with the Executive Director of the Montana Baptist Convention to whom he wrote a long letter, pointing out why he thought planting new churches as they are doing is not right and how the Director replied with just two words, “Duly noted.”

          The Pastor is so disgusted and says to Howse, What’s the point in believing in the Bible, if we don’t listen to it and consider it authoritative and sufficient?

          Anyway, I hope you listened to the whole thing and that you will listen to Brannon Howse explain the CC apostasy in his ebook, “Religious Trojan Horse,” because, if you do, you’ll see what it is that they are broken hearted over. It is the CC apostasy, just as I have been saying it was.

      2. Dbundy,

        Is Jesus your “elder” brother? Do you understand that Joseph’s Myth morphed over time? If your an honest Mormon and not a bitter deceived one, than you will acknowledge that the original Book of Mormon in novel form was written (plagiarised) by joe as your original author in a language (reformed egyptian hieroglyphics)never heard of…Did you know that? Did you know that JOE actually believed in the TRIUNE GOD before his idea of GOD Changed some 14 years after the original b of m was taken from his hat? Do you even know your own history of the church you claim is the only true church on the face of this earth? You don’t have the courage to investigate your own religion because you might be confused with the TRUTH… that Joe was and still is A FRAUD! GIve me “ONE” thing Joe needed to restore that was lost in the primitive church that you can find in the book created from his hat & rocks…AKA your book of mormon? Just “ONE” Dbundy! Give me some Archeology, something that you can hang YOUR “HAT” on?

        1. Man, you guys are just foamin at the mouth, with anger, bitterness and scorn. I’m telling you, Jesus says his servant is going to be marred, because of your unbelief, but he will heal him. because his life is in his hands.

          The cunning of the devil, which has deceived you, is no match for the wisdom of the Lord. It is true that, after the hedge is broken down, the twelve trees will be broken down as well and the works of his servants will be destroyed, but he will send his servant Joseph to gather the strength of his house, his warriors, his young men and his middle aged men, and the breaker will break them out of Bozrah, and they will break down the hedge of the enemy; they will throw down his tower and scatter his watchmen, for the Lord, will go before them.

          Yet, I fear for you, for no one has warned you to flee from the wrath to come. You say you read the Bible, and you don’t need anything other than what is between the covers of that book, but the Lord has made it clear that, because you have rejected his word, which he has sent forth out of the earth to bear witness of his Only Begotten Son, his resurrection from the dead and the resurrection of all men, that which you have shall be taken from you.

          “Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

          For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

          Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

          Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.”

          1. dbundy , It completely destroyed your whole argument with your spin
            on this book you cited ( ” Religious Trojan Horse ” ) because you
            said that included in the false prophets/ wolves of this generation
            which the author identifies in it is a influencial Mormon . Bingo !!!
            Thanks for admitting that some of the false prophets for “this
            generation ” ( latter days ? ) is a very well liked Mormon .
            Your attempt to weasel out of this dilemma was especially telling .
            It spoke volumes .

            For you , ” They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding
            and they that murmured shall learn doctrine .”

            May you come to learn the true doctrine about God and how to
            receive a right and complete relationship with Him . Following
            false prophets because they sound like they have heard from God
            is alluring but it can be spiritually lethal :

            ” Thus saith the Lord of Hosts , Hearken not unto the words of the
            prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a
            vision of their own heart , and not out of the mouth of the Lord. ”

            Paul warns : ” Now the Spirit speaketh expressly , that in
            the LATTER TIMES some will depart from the faith ….”

            This can happen when a person is fooled by the clever speech of
            false prophets of these LATTER DAYS i.e. those of the Mormon church .
            You don’t need Mormonism . Please make that change soon .

          2. Dbundy,

            When you have nothing of evidence to prove your Hat & Rocks theory, and you don’t have the courage to quote the most corrected book…yet you (your religion)claim the Holy Bible is Corrupt your only proving that your intellectually dishonest! Why can’t you answer the question…Is Jesus your “Elder” brother? Your cunning “elder” brother satan has you fooled into believing you can become a god someday, you know the same guy (lucifer) that comes out in the pagan mormon temple ceremony video? I know it sucks for you right now, because you have nothing of “FACTS” of your religion, so you come back with we are all foamin at the mouth with anger, but I realize that is a custom tactic with (Mormons) when your ask a question that you can’t answer (mormons)you typically turn to your kind of diatribe! Poor Dbundy, do you feel like a victim when your called out for answers stimming from your blind faith in Mormonism?
            Why don’t you quote from JST translation? Like Luke 10:23 In the Joseph Smith translation it is translated as: Inspired Version (emphasis added) All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. Wow, Did Joe believe in a TRIUNE GOD at one time, or am I missing something? How about Moroni 8:18 “God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
            Dbundy, Did Elohim have sexual relations with his spirit daughter Mary to create mormon jesus?
            The Holy Bible warns us of people like the “CUNNING” joe’s of the world, but you have a blind faith in a “CON MAN” made up religion and you don’t have the courage and or the intellectual honesty to say…”I am a Mormon and I have nothing of evidence of my blind faith, but it makes me feel good for others to do the thinking for me!”

  14. @Douglas Bundy, still you continue on about Brannon Howse, Randy White, and others who have been on Mr. Howse’s show even though Mr. White has already come on here and stately emphatically that he doesn’t agree with you.

    Clearly Mr. Bundy you are twisting and bastardizing the content of Mr. Howse’s show to meet your personal agenda. It’s obvious that when you listen you’ve already come to the conclusion first and then you bend the content of the show to fit it rather than letting the evidence lead.

    This is known as Confirmation Bias.

    I think a simple question here will expose just how ridiculous this tactic is . . .

    Q: Even if everything that you’ve claimed about Brannon Howse and his guests is true do you REALLY think that their answer to the issues they address is, “If you’re in the audience hearing this you need to go get baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! That’s where the truth can be found!”

    Randy White has already given an emphatic, “No!” If Mr. Howse should reply to my email or, as Mr. White did, come onto this board do you think that would be his stance? Mr. Jordans? Any of his other guests?

    I think the answer is clearly no.

  15. Josepm Smith did not kill two men. Three men were wounded. The day after the mob stormed the Carthage Jail and killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith a local paper confirmed that the three men were indeed alive and fled the state. These three men were indicted for the killings because they had wounds to prove they were part of the mob. They were never arrested nor brought to trial.

      1. From The History of the Church vol. 7, p.102
        “I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died. I had in my hands a large, strong hickory stick, brought there by Brother Markham, and left by him, which I had seized as soon as I saw the mob approach; and while Brother Joseph was firing the pistol, I stood close behind him. As soon as he had discharged it he stepped back, and I immediately took his place next to the door, while he occupied the one I had done while he was shooting. Brother Richards, at this time, had a knotty walking-stick in his hands belonging to me, and stood next to Brother Joseph, a little farther from the door, in an oblique direction, apparently to avoid the rake of the fire from the door. The firing of Brother Joseph made our assailants pause for a moment; very soon after, however, they pushed the door some distance open, and protruded and discharged their guns into the room, when I parried them off with my stick, giving another direction to the balls.
        https://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/hcpgs/hc.aspx

  16. I was wondering where we could hear the show you were on along with their take and their segment with the Mormon?

    1. I’m not sure if the station still has it. I don’t ever remember getting a copy of it myself. You can check though it you like. The radio station was WOAI in San Antonio. One of the hosts was Deborah Daniels-Albrecht. I don’t remember the male host’s name. The interview was done in April or May of 2005.

      Hey, let me know if you come up with something. I’d like to have a copy of it too.

  17. I do doubt that any facts given will be encouraging enough to bring Mr.Bundy to a realization that many here have tried to awaken him Fromm a deep dreadful sleep. Why would anyone leave a false religion that entitles it members to such great benefits.

    I only left because God made me. He made me alive in him. At that point there was no other choice. It didnt matter thatmy family wouldn’t agree, or I may lose job or house or status. My soul panted to be with Christ. I longed to know my salvation was secure.

    As Jesus told his disciple that wanted to attend his fathers funeral first and then come to follow Jesus. “Let the dead bury the dead “. At any time any person can repent or turnaround and look to Jesus for salvation and freedom from their sins. Today is the day of salvation so draw near to God and he will draw near to you. There isn’t any person alive that Christ did not die for.

    Whether CC Christians agree or Mormonism claims it is Christian won’t matter if when you see Jesus face to face, and he says “I never knew you “.

  18. The key words of John Taylor’s account is ” I was informed”. There were all kinds of information swirling around that was wrong or partly wrong, just as it happens today during a major event. John Taylor did not see who was shot or how serious nor did he see the men die. He was given wrong information.

    Wikipedia: .wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith: Joseph Smith, Taylor, and Richards attempted to defend themselves. Taylor and Richards attempted to use walking sticks in order to deflect the guns as they were thrust inside the cell, from behind the door. Smith used a small pepper-box pistol that Cyrus Wheelock gave him when Wheelock visited the jail earlier that day.[18] Three of the six barrels misfired,[19] but the other three shots injured at least three of the attackers.[20]

    Dallin H. Oaks (Apostle in the LDS church) and historian Marvin S. Hill researched many years to write the book: Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith. This book is not pro Mormon. It is written from a law perspective and historical law perspective, because Elder Oaks is a lawyer. It deals with historic law and the trial of the mob members who were indicted. If the two or three men died they would not have been indicted.
    From Carthage Conspiracy: “Wills, Voras, and Gallaher were probably named in the indictment because their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob. They undoubtedly recognized their vulnerability and fled the county. A contemporary witness reported these three as saying that they were the first men at the jail, that one of them shot through the door killing Hyrum, that Joseph wounded all three with his pistol, and that Gallaher shot Joseph as he ran to the window.[Hay, “The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy,” 675] According to Hay, Wills, whom the Mormon prophet had shot in the arm, was an Irishman who had joined the mob from “his congenital love of a brawl.”[Statement of Jeremiah Willey, August 13, 1844, Brigham Young correspondence, Church Archives.] Gallaher was a young man from Mississippi who was shot in the face.[Hay, “The Mormon Prophet’s Tragedy,” 669, 675. Another source says Wills was a former Mormon elder who had left the Church. Davis, An Authentic Account, 24.] Hay described Voras (Voorhees) as a “half-grown hobbledehoy from Bear Creek” whom Joseph shot in the shoulder. The citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing.[Statement of Jeremiah Willey, August 13, 1844]”

    There are also other statements of non Mormons and Mormons who were there and gave statements about what happened. All of them say the three men were wounded and lived. Another source called Trial of the Smith Assassins tells that three men were wounded and gives the names. It was written by a non Mormon, John Hay (who did not like Mormons) who Elder Oaks references,

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